Hi,

I am looking for a responce from Microsoft on this one as it's something that I am sure crossing the mind of every one who owns a Cable Card Media Center system, that they had to buy and could not build. So this is kind of important one here.

Now that cable companies are moving to SDV or Tru2way (2-way cable cards) people are starting to lose channels because of this. Over time, this is going to get worse, current ATI cable card systems are not going be able to handle this, so users will lose access to new channels or lose access to current channels.

Cable companies are doing this to save the bandwith and be able to add more content with out re-doing their whole systems, providing a on-demand type system for most channels.

People in areas are starting to lose channels from this, as shown on here..

http://www.missingremote.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2945&Itemid=1

Motorola and Cisco are releasing (or have ?) a device to work with Tivos and other 3rd party devices to resolve this problem and allow people to view this 2-way content.

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6579511.html

And Chris reported on this blog that it possably might not work with Media Center/PCs

http://msmvps.com/blogs/chrisl/archive/2008/05/19/1624338.aspx

So, the questions here for Microsoft is...

1. Does Microsoft/ATI have plans laid out to take care of this issue in a reasonable time frame (not 3 years or Windows 7) ?

2. Are you looking into this device and cablelabs to make this work with current systems ?

3. Is everyone who spent $200-300 on each tuner(most people have at least 2), going to have to dump them to buy a new tuner or can this be taken care of by some software and a firmware update ?

4. Please let us know that this will not take 3 years be resolved

I would like to see this taken care of before it becomes a big problem for users. I don't have a cable card setup yet but, thinking about it. This is one of those problems that make me hold back a little and most people looking into one should know about.

I think we need and deserve a responce about this subject

Thanks !

---

-Dave

MCP, MCSA, MCSE 2003
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Technologists
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Sales professionals

Home theater specialist (10+ years)

Great questions, that I think everyone wants answers to, but we should not forget that the Tuning adapters aren't even out yet. Sure, they should be out very soon, but just saying, give 'em some time.

That being said, it would be nice to know they have a plan. But I'm not 100% convinced this has anything to do with Microsoft -- in fact I think it may be in ATI's court. The reason I say this is because the tuning adapter's (TA) job is to communicate upstream on behalf of the OCUR. In fact Chris has previously stated that this is why he's not sure the current OCUR will ever work with a TA, but I disagree.

Personally the way I suspect it'll work is that the TA will plug into the VMC via USB and would show up as a generic UPNP enabled Network device (you know like the ATI DCT does) then the OCUR would need a firmware update that would enable it to locate (via UPNP again) and communicate with the TA as a network device.

As you can see, if I'm right, MS won't need to do anything. In the past I contacted both ATI and CableLabs in regards to this issue and I wrote about it here. But to to keep you from having to click through, this is what they said.

CableLabs said
"The CableLabs specifications for the tuning resolver (now called Tuning
Adapter) and the UDCP application extension do no technically prevent
use with an OCUR.  Specifically, any UDCP that has a USB connector and
necessary firmware can be made to work.  But, as for the when and how of
this implementation, you should probably contact the OCUR manufacturer."

ATI said,
"AMD is in discussions with all the relevant parties to addess the issue of Switched Digital Video."

One thing is for sure, there wasn't any testing of the TA in the TV Pack that was recently released to OEMs, so if it does require an MS update, there's a good chance it'll be Windows 7 before we see it.

---

Ben
How good can it be, if it isn't HD?
Engadget HD

Thanks for the updates on this. I've been more interested in the tru2way aspect of this, but I suppose I will have to start worrying about SDV in the meantime, whether I want to or not.

All I know is that I'm with you--I don't want to hear that I'll have to wait for Windows 7 to get something that I either should be getting now or that I'm already getting!

---

XPS 420 Q9300 Quadcore @ 2.5 Ghz
4 GB 800 Mhz Ram
Radeon HD2600 XT 256 mb
Vista Premium w/ Digital Cable support
Ati TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner
Ati TV Wonder Elite Tuner
Hauppauge HVR-950 Hybrid tuner (for OTA HD)
Dual 20" wide screen monitors

Tru2way is another thing altogether, but the big problem there is Java. Now, I'm not one who thinks that MS hates Java so much they'd not support something -- like Blu-ray -- just to avoid it, but I do know that I have heard others say such things.

The thing that would really suck about tru2way is that beyond the two-way tuning abilities, in order to take advantage of VOD etc, you'd have to launch a Java app that was deployed from your provider. This could obvioulsy really break up the fluid feel, but then again I suppose it'd be a lot like playing Blu-ray discs in ArcSoft Total Media Theater.

I'd be VERY surprised to see tru2way support before Windows 7.

---

Ben
How good can it be, if it isn't HD?
Engadget HD

Yea, there is nothing fluid about Media Center launching powerdvd to play a Blue Ray on my system as it is right now.

If Microsoft really does have some beef or aversion to java, I really hope we don't all miss out or have to wait another 3 years because of that.

---

XPS 420 Q9300 Quadcore @ 2.5 Ghz
4 GB 800 Mhz Ram
Radeon HD2600 XT 256 mb
Vista Premium w/ Digital Cable support
Ati TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner
Ati TV Wonder Elite Tuner
Hauppauge HVR-950 Hybrid tuner (for OTA HD)
Dual 20" wide screen monitors

acutally MS's adversion to Java right now might be the lawsuit that they had in win98 when they included the java app in the O/S.  They might be on sketchy ground with Sun on that still.   

---

Ben

bjdraw:

Tru2way is another thing altogether, but the big problem there is Java. Now, I'm not one who thinks that MS hates Java so much they'd not support something -- like Blu-ray -- just to avoid it, but I do know that I have heard others say such things.

The thing that would really suck about tru2way is that beyond the two-way tuning abilities, in order to take advantage of VOD etc, you'd have to launch a Java app that was deployed from your provider. This could obvioulsy really break up the fluid feel, but then again I suppose it'd be a lot like playing Blu-ray discs in ArcSoft Total Media Theater.

I'd be VERY surprised to see tru2way support before Windows 7.

I understand the aspects of this. In my case, it keeps me wondering, spend $600 (on 3 ATI tuners) or wait and not even buy a new machine because of this.

I also feel, that I could be dumping $1200+ into a new system that does not even support new things the cable card is doing is already outdated.

I do hope someone from Microsoft can reply on this.

If we have to wait till Windows 7 for an update like this, Sage with a HD-PVR is starting to sound even better, and I don't want to go that route...As I like Media Center

---

-Dave

MCP, MCSA, MCSE 2003
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Technologists
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Sales professionals

Home theater specialist (10+ years)

... us DirecTV are in the same boat.

---

My VMC setup:
(2) Xbox360s
System 1 -
Dell XPS410 (2.6Ghz C2D, 2GB Ram,Nvidia 8600GT, Blu-ray internal, HD-DVD external (X360 drive), (2) Vboxx DTA150s (OTA HD), Adaptec Dual Tuner (fed a steady diet of DirecTV... sadly NOT in HD)

Microsoft,

Could you give us a responce here ? This question is being asked all over this site with not even a single responce anyway from you.

This is something that can become a major issue for some people. As Cable COs start moving to SDV, people will start losing programming that they are paying for and we can't get any word from the creator of the system about future support or not.

There also are a lot of other people that are not buying a system because of the lack of support. We need to know what the deal is.

Please give us something here.....

---

-Dave

MCP, MCSA, MCSE 2003
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Technologists
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Sales professionals

Home theater specialist (10+ years)

Put me in the same boat.  With no Direct TV in the near term, I'm about as on the fence as you can be to move to cable card.  But I would be an unhappy camper if support and/or channels were gone within a few months of buying a pc with no way to tune them in sight.  A response will likely make a sale for you if that helps at all...Even the knowledge it is coming I could live with.  It is the potential it will never come that keeps me away. 

Why is a hardware issue Microsoft's problem, and not say, ATI and CableLabs?

jelinback:

Why is a hardware issue Microsoft's problem, and not say, ATI and CableLabs?

Well, it's kind of both but, when it all comes down to it, ATI makes the tuner for Vista (the only use for the ATI tuners), Microsoft would have to talk to ATI to support the new feature. Also they would have to create the software for Vista to support the new feature.

So, in a nut shell, Microsoft should know what the deal is, as people are using Vista to watch the cable card content.

So, it is Microsoft's problem and this is why I think we deserve a responce on this one....

---

-Dave

MCP, MCSA, MCSE 2003
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Technologists
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Sales professionals

Home theater specialist (10+ years)

I agree a response would be nice.  I just bought a twin OCUR cable card system from HP within the last month and already 2 things have made me regret it. One being the TV Pack for OEM only and the other being that Time Warner Cable in San Diego started using SDV due to the new channels for the Olympics and now I'm no longer able to get channels including HDNet and Mojo.

Ok, this analogy may be bad, but here is my view on it.  I know many of us here are IT Professionals and I've had more than my share of calls to Microsoft that result from issues with windows working with other's hardware and software alike.  And while over the years I've had the classic finger pointing of it is up to the 3rd party to support it, and I don't disagree in many cases, I've also had MS support work with me on finding out the root causes of issues specific to other vendor's hardware and software.  The past few years especially MS support has never left me out to dry. 

 I could give specific examples but my point is the MS support team for enterprise keeps enterprise customers apprised differently on these things than the ehome team is able.  And, again while the analogy is off here for many reasons, dissemenating information about the very few cable card options and the future support path and issues should be addressed by Microsoft.  I wouln't expect them to support every piece of hardware that could be connected to a pc, but this is so propriatary and specifically tied to MS I think they do share in the support, if nothing else at least in informing customers.

After having said all of this, I'll probably make the plunge anyway and I wouldn't be surprised to get a letter from my cable company about switched channels the day after my sytem ships.  But I do have hope and am optimistic about a workaround.  I am not putting Vista down.  I love it and VMC.  And I applaud this forum's aqcuistion by MS.  That's why I post here now when in the past I was more of a reader only.  It's feedback not griping, from me at least, and I hope it is taken that way by the MS guys now helping us out.  

 

empmark:

<snip>

After having said all of this, I'll probably make the plunge anyway and I wouldn't be surprised to get a letter from my cable company about switched channels the day after my sytem ships.  But I do have hope and am optimistic about a workaround.  I am not putting Vista down.  I love it and VMC.  And I applaud this forum's aqcuistion by MS.  That's why I post here now when in the past I was more of a reader only.  It's feedback not griping, from me at least, and I hope it is taken that way by the MS guys now helping us out.  

As, I am in the IT and home theater field, I know what you mean. Chances are, I will go cable card because right now, I can't even watch a Baseball game in HD (NESN) that I know I can get via cable card. Every day it ticks me off about it.

I just would like to know what the deal is, if new ATI tuners are coming out, let us know, so I don't dump $600 in 3 tuners to find out that they have to be dumpped 3 months later. This is the problem and a major one for me holding tight for now.

This is my money, not Microsoft's, at least they could give us a clue here...and I don't like to burn it

---

-Dave

MCP, MCSA, MCSE 2003
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Technologists
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Sales professionals

Home theater specialist (10+ years)