Extra software + something that I trust to backup all of my files = Bad idea.  Backup servers should just do backup.

The addition of Media Center in Home Server would be great for a select few here at The Green Button, but it does nothing to push Media Center into the customer market, nor does it do anything to force the change in the platform that needs to happen.

Chris - Moderator:

Extra software + something that I trust to backup all of my files = Bad idea.  Backup servers should just do backup.

The addition of Media Center in Home Server would be great for a select few here at The Green Button, but it does nothing to push Media Center into the customer market, nor does it do anything to force the change in the platform that needs to happen.

Wow I disagree here. Firstly because WHS is still on operating system not just a backup system. Hence all the addins and such that are available and all this is kept on a c: partition separate from the backups/pooled drives.

I think you are underatting how great WHS is as a server solution. I think more than a few at TGB would use this solution. Especially if DRM or softsled solution existed.

Your suggesting that your parents would run out to Best Buy and drop $800 on a "server" that backs up and records TV?  I know mine wouldn't.  What they might do is go buy a new desktop PC and later realize it comes with Media Center so they can take advantage of it.  WHS+MCE is an enthusiast dream product, but I don't see it go any further than that.

"Especially if DRM or softsled solution existed."  That kind of makes up my overall point of it not forcing change that needs to happen in the first place.  Make that change happen first, then develop a platform around that.

BTW, I don't do add-ins on my home server.  It is for backup and remote access, nothing more.  Introducing more roles on a server like this is asking for problems IMHO.

Of course, with OEMs killing their Extender's I don't see much of a reason to invest in WHS+MCE at this point.  I'm not putting Xbox 360's all around my home and I don't trust Microsoft to treat OEMs right for them to get back into the Extender market.  WHS+MCE would have to be built on Extender's killing ass in the market.  Instead of that happening, companies like Linksys are selling their inventory at $75/each losing who knows how much money on each one.

The addition of Softsled would be great, but again this is an enthusiast dream and nothing else.  The rest of the market decided a long time ago that they had no interest in connecting a PC to their TV.  High price did play a big roll there, and that has come down but the average user isn't going to run out and buy an Atom+ION machine with the sole intent on connecting it to a TV.

My bet, WHS+MCE will happen at some point.  It will be a semi-hit with  enthusiasts, but fail to capture any other market.

Being a home integrator I have to politely disagree again.

The one thing my customers want is a "backup solution" for all their pictures/movies. If they spend the time ripping them they don't want to have to do it twice.

My WHS installs with sage using tuners have been great no problems. To say you are asking for problems is not so. WHS is built on Server 2003 are you telling me it was only meant for backups?? I mean I know it is not complete 2003 but the same underlaying architeture is there.

I think the main problems lies in Media center itself and I agree greatly that the death of the linksys is a huge blow to media center.

People don't want computers at every tv end of story. They also don't want me to have to build two computers and bill them for it. (Like I have to do with MEdia center installs one for WHS and one for Media Center.) With Sage I just build one.

I have done 3 installs and everyone is amazed and can't believe what one server can do.

I don't know why you fear putting add-ins on your WHS if they are good ones they add more value than WHS ever could alone.

Right now, Best Buy sells the TiVo HD XL with a 1 Tb drive for $600 – not including the cost of the mandatory one year TiVo subscription. THis is a $600 box that doesn't provide secure remote access to every computer in your home, nor offer centralized backup and restore. Suddenly that hypothetical $800 WHS2 box Chris mentioned is looking pretty competitive.

PLUCKYHD:

Being a home integrator I have to politely disagree again.

The one thing my customers want is a "backup solution" for all their pictures/movies. If they spend the time ripping them they don't want to have to do it twice.

My WHS installs with sage using tuners have been great no problems. To say you are asking for problems is not so. WHS is built on Server 2003 are you telling me it was only meant for backups?? I mean I know it is not complete 2003 but the same underlaying architeture is there.

I think the main problems lies in Media center itself and I agree greatly that the death of the linksys is a huge blow to media center.

People don't want computers at every tv end of story. They also don't want me to have to build two computers and bill them for it. (Like I have to do with MEdia center installs one for WHS and one for Media Center.) With Sage I just build one.

I have done 3 installs and everyone is amazed and can't believe what one server can do.

I don't know why you fear putting add-ins on your WHS if they are good ones they add more value than WHS ever could alone.

If the one thing your customers want is a backup solution I'd sell them a backup solution and just that.  Added value is one thing, trying to kill 2 birds with one stone is another.  For the longest time Microsoft has tried to kill several birds using one stone, and it always ends up as a half baked solution.

I know I'm not going to convince most people here, but I don't see WHS+MCE as something that will drive Media Center to where it needs to be.  I know at lot of people where want it, and if you are a mid to high-end integrator I know your customers will think it is cool, but I don't see this type of thing changing the market landscape of Media Center at all. 

htolino:

Right now, Best Buy sells the TiVo HD XL with a 1 Tb drive for $600 – not including the cost of the mandatory one year TiVo subscription. THis is a $600 box that doesn't provide secure remote access to every computer in your home, nor offer centralized backup and restore. Suddenly that hypothetical $800 WHS2 box Chris mentioned is looking pretty competitive.

$800 doesn't include Extender's that are (in theory) mandatory.  Add $200 (at least) for each one.  TiVo has one thing going for them, the brand.  Media Center has no "brand" outside TGB.  The choice between a $800 "TiVo" at Best Buy and an $1000 "HP Home Server+Xbox 360" is a very simple choice for most average customers.

@chris-moderator, you seem to be down on the whole Media Center concept. 

What has Microsoft done with treatment of Extender OEMs that has caused you to lose trust?  If you are basing it on one company, Cisco/Linksys, who has pulled one sku..well I would say those folks have competitive reasons for not really throwing more of their weight behind Extenders.  After all, they own a company that makes settop/dvr boxes for cable companys etc.  But I don't believe that this one company or pulled sku represents a trend.  Ian Dixon posted on his blog a report that predicted Media Center/Extender growth of about 15% annually, reaching 60 millions households by 2013.  That might not seem like a lot considering the overall market but I think its significant enough.  The report also predicts costs for Media Center/Extender to drop 15% annually.  If roku can make a sub $100 priced extender so can Media Extender partners.  I think it was hugely unrealistic for OEMs to think they could have penetrated the market with $200+ devices.  Now, I don't know what drove them to those price points but it could be that the hardware was a tad ahead of its time 2 years ago and justified the higher price.  And it can't be Media Extender licensing...from what I have read the license is pretty much free.  I think the consumer expectation is that these devices are not doing much other than extending experiences to the TV and thus need to be sold at commodity prices.  Where the money is made is in subscriptions and content sales.  So what I think Microsoft really really needs to do is find a way to support that business model with their partners.  Perhaps something like that can be achieved through OEM/Zune partnership.

Do you see any way, even if unlikely, to turn Media Center into a consumer hit?  And if Microsoft wasn't looking to grow Media Center then why would they include it in the upcoming release of Windows 7?  Do you think price is the main limiting factor? 

You said you parents wouldn't buy a $800 dvr type device.  I have to agree, mine wouldn't either.  Then again, I'd be the one that would introduce dvr capabilities to my parents in the form of a gift.  Another area that Microsoft really needs to tackle (at least here in the U.S.) is getting the $300 cablecard tuner costs down.  We need more competition instead of letting AMD basically dictate prices.

Chris - Moderator:

The choice between a $800 "TiVo" at Best Buy and an $1000 "HP Home Server+Xbox 360" is a very simple choice for most average customers.

Store location ("TV/DVD" section) is something that Tivo has going for it.  For Microsoft to get that sort of product placement it will likely require partnerships with major consumer electronics manufacturers.  To date they have primarily focused on networking equipment/pc manufacturers for the Media Center platform.  However, at CES there were some signs that this may be changing ever so slightly.  Another reason "for" moving Media Center onto the Windows Home Server platform is that it removes alot of the traditional PC aspects..making it much easier to incorporate in an entertainment offering that is displayed in a store's "TV/DVD" section.  Yes, there is some complexity around WHS's networking requirements but I think could be alleviated by some alternation of the WHS base unit..perhaps a small built-in LCD control panel.

USArcher:

@chris-moderator, you seem to be down on the whole Media Center concept.

What has Microsoft done with treatment of Extender OEMs that has caused you to lose trust?  If you are basing it on one company, Cisco/Linksys, who has pulled one sku..well I would say those folks have competitive reasons for not really throwing more of their weight behind Extenders.  After all, they own a company that makes settop/dvr boxes for cable companys etc.  But I don't believe that this one company or pulled sku represents a trend.

I've been somewhat down on Media Center for a while now.  I know there are some things coming that will boost me as well as many of you up, but I'll let you wait until you see what those are and how they work.

And no, I'm not basing anything off Linksys/Cisco.  I've know things about the product that most don't, and I've know them for a while.  In terms of Extenders you have to look big picture.  HP and Linksys are on their second go around and both ventures are pretty much been a failure in terms of sales.  The market for Media Center just isn't big enough for big OEMs to get in on the action. 

It also isn't just one company.  Nivues (the highest of the high end) dropped their Extender's just months after releasing them.  HP hasn't officially killed theirs, but they did drop out of the connected TV market (which included a MediaSmart TV w/ Extender integrated).

USArcher:

Ian Dixon posted on his blog a report that predicted Media Center/Extender growth of about 15% annually, reaching 60 millions households by 2013.  That might not seem like a lot considering the overall market but I think its significant enough.  The report also predicts costs for Media Center/Extender to drop 15% annually.

Sorry, I'm not a big numbers guy with stuff like this.  This doesn't take in account that it is very hard to things to grow when no one is producing them.  If there are no OEMs to build Extenders, there is no growth rate.  I'm also not sure the report walks hand and hand with what Microsoft is developing.  I said a few months ago that I believe the focus is on watching "TV on the PC," and while I see something different I'm going to stick to that.

USArcher:

If roku can make a sub $100 priced extender so can Media Extender partners.  I think it was hugely unrealistic for OEMs to think they could have penetrated the market with $200+ devices.  Now, I don't know what drove them to those price points but it could be that the hardware was a tad ahead of its time 2 years ago and justified the higher price.

The differences in the Roku and the Linksys Extenders aren't that huge.  In fact, most devices on the market use a varation of the Sigma processor found in the Linksys devices.  As for what drives the price up, I can't say exactly.  I doubt it is much on the hardware side though.

USArcher:

Do you see any way, even if unlikely, to turn Media Center into a consumer hit?  And if Microsoft wasn't looking to grow Media Center then why would they include it in the upcoming release of Windows 7?  Do you think price is the main limiting factor? 

You have to define "consumer hit".  Your thinking whole home I assume.  Why include and promote as a part of Windows 7?  Why include any other desktop application?  Where in any Windows 7 marketing have you seen Microsoft promote using Media Center for whole home connected lifestyles?

USArcher:

Another area that Microsoft really needs to tackle (at least here in the U.S.) is getting the $300 cablecard tuner costs down.  We need more competition instead of letting AMD basically dictate prices.

Microsoft plays no role here.  They don't do hardware, and for the number of OCURs AMD makes I don't see why they would be interested in cutting costs.  Actually, given the issues AMD is having I wouldn't put much of any thought on OCUR right now.  As for others getting in the game, no reason they can't.  The price of admission with CableLabs will hold most back though.

USArcher:

Store location ("TV/DVD" section) is something that Tivo has going for it.  For Microsoft to get that sort of product placement it will likely require partnerships with major consumer electronics manufacturers.  To date they have primarily focused on networking equipment/pc manufacturers for the Media Center platform.  However, at CES there were some signs that this may be changing ever so slightly.  Another reason "for" moving Media Center onto the Windows Home Server platform is that it removes alot of the traditional PC aspects..making it much easier to incorporate in an entertainment offering that is displayed in a store's "TV/DVD" section.  Yes, there is some complexity around WHS's networking requirements but I think could be alleviated by some alternation of the WHS base unit..perhaps a small built-in LCD control panel.

OEMs don't really care about removing the traditional PC aspects, they care about market share and so does everyone reading this right now.  Why do you care about market share?  It means economics of scale actually works (eg. price goes down)

In fact the concept of WHS+MCE taking the tourch from the desktop PC is most likely the last thing any big OEM wants to see.  Would OEM X rather develop any Extender where the prime market is millions of desktop, or a few hunderd thousand WHS+MCEs?

As everyone is way off tpic here, perhaps this could start a new thread?  I very interested in news about Draco, so I don't want to stop getting email alerts, but if it's about something else I'd prefer to not have my iphone beeping away every few minutes.  Thanks all!!

Good idea.  Two threads follow below.

WHS+MCE
http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/360899/ShowThread.aspx#360899

Extender discontinued thread:
http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/359932.aspx

Which brings me to my next question... is there ANY news about the DRACO? I know Dish just had their Team Summit and I was hoping to hear something new about this, but since the initial reports came out, there has been mostly nothing about it out there.

It's been over a month since LASooner asked his question re: DRACO updates without a response, so I'll bump and see if there's any new news.

Any new news?

I'd be surprised if anything more was said until right around the Windows 7 launch in late October.

Interestingly enough, I started playing around with Dish remote access yesterday. It allows me to set timers, change channels and manage the DVR disks through my computer by way of the network connection on the back of the 622. I was thinking it wouldn't be a huge leap to make an interface in mediacenter that would control the Dish box that same way, but pass the video stream over the network cable into the mediacenter, for recording in DVR-MS or WTV format.

http://dish.sling.com/