This is my first post so if this thread is in the wrong forum, please direct me and I will resubmit it.

I have several dvr-ms Recorded TV files, both movies and TV series, that were recorded on my Vista Ultimate computer (and also some vedio that was previously recorded using MCE 2005 on the same computer before I upgraded to Vista Ultimate). The motherboard died on my old machine  used to record a lot of this video and a good portion of the videos give me a "restricted content" message when I try to play the video on the replacement machine (also Vista Ultimate).  I assume the "restrected content" message appears because the digital rights to view the video recorded on my dead computer does not transfer to my new computer.  This is frustrating to me for I have legally paid for access to the video recorded on the old computer but cannot view it because of (agin, I assume) DRM.

Here is some software that proports to remove DRM from video files:

http://www.wmatomp3-converter.com/digital-media-converter.html

Do any of you have any experience with this software or others that would allow me to convert the dvr-ms files to MPEG4 or some other format this software can take as input (I don't think dvr-ms input files are supported by the software) and then use this Digital Media Converter software to strip the DRM from the files?  I assume I would then have to re-convert the resultant file (without DRM) back to a dvr-ms file so it would be recognized by Vista Media Center for playback in VMC.

I guess there are several quesitons here, but mainly I want to know if any of you have been successful (either using the software referenced in the link above or any other software) in making video recorded on an old machine (which is now dead) viewable on a new machine and still be able to control/manage it with VMC without encountering the DRM rectrictions that arise when the DRM has not been stripped out?

Sadly there is nothing you can do here.  The DRM used in those files is not the same as the DRM that converter claims to remove.  Furthermore, the DRM it claims to remove is either done via playback capture (eg. horrible quality), or via an old DRM hack that no longer works if you have a machine with Windows Updates installed within the past 2 years.

Chris - Moderator:

Sadly there is nothing you can do here.  The DRM used in those files is not the same as the DRM that converter claims to remove.  Furthermore, the DRM it claims to remove is either done via playback capture (eg. horrible quality), or via an old DRM hack that no longer works if you have a machine with Windows Updates installed within the past 2 years.

Thanks Chris for your reply.  Is there nothing to do but blow away those files that will not play or is there some possibility of a move afoot that might remedy this situation sometime in the future?  Seems a shame to just have to sit back and take it when one is trying to use the video acquired in a completely legal manner with no intent to distribute same.  What about the fair-view movement I have heard something about?

George,

Did you try to renew your DRM licencse? I wonder if everything is the same except the motherboard if that might help.

It quick and simple and if it doesn't work, nothing lost.

http://drmlicense.one.microsoft.com/Indivsite/en/indivit.asp

It is frustrating.  I recently had to reinstall Vista Ultimate on my Dell XPS420.  Same motherboard, same hardware... same Windows and DCT keys, even.  But it also meant blowing away a few hundred gigs of video that would no longer play.  I've even tested this out, reverting to a previous backup from my WHS, and unfortunately the DRM isn't even tied to the system so much as the "state" of a particular system (so restoring to a backup from a few months ago rendered newer recording restricted).  I think this is a major part of why Media Center, which needs access to HD content, won't catch on... look at the music industry shift to MP3s without DRM.  That's where things are moving, driven by consumers, not the content owners.  Yet, my Media Center recordings are more locked down than my iPhone.

JohnW248:

George,

Did you try to renew your DRM licencse? I wonder if everything is the same except the motherboard if that might help.

It quick and simple and if it doesn't work, nothing lost.

http://drmlicense.one.microsoft.com/Indivsite/en/indivit.asp

John, thanks for your info.  Unfortantly, I went out and bought an identical machine but it had completely new processor, drives, memory, different motherboard, etc.  I installed Vista Ultimate on the new machine.  I also have WHS but did not do a restore from backup.  Thanks for the tip. I will try it and report back if this works (to renew the DRM licence).

slightlyseven:

It is frustrating.  I recently had to reinstall Vista Ultimate on my Dell XPS420.  Same motherboard, same hardware... same Windows and DCT keys, even.  But it also meant blowing away a few hundred gigs of video that would no longer play.  I've even tested this out, reverting to a previous backup from my WHS, and unfortunately the DRM isn't even tied to the system so much as the "state" of a particular system (so restoring to a backup from a few months ago rendered newer recording restricted).  I think this is a major part of why Media Center, which needs access to HD content, won't catch on... look at the music industry shift to MP3s without DRM.  That's where things are moving, driven by consumers, not the content owners.  Yet, my Media Center recordings are more locked down than my iPhone.

 

I agree slightlyseven.  Companies do not seem to have the foresight to recognize consumers will eventually abandon those who are not consumer oriented.  The customer is the reason the company exist and when that customer goes away (which they will eventually do when the company is so shortsighted about what is best for the consumer) the company will eventually fail if they do not change.  Look at AOL as the prime example of this kind of thinking. 

Of course, I know there is always two sides to any story and I can understand protecting the rights of the company/middleman or whatever you want to call it but when a customer is only trying to use the content for which he has paid for his own personal use and is stopped from doing so because of protections set up to stop stealing (but the pro's who steal will find a way to do it anyway) but also frustrate their law abiding customer, in the long run they will lose that battle because they will not survive without changes in their thinking.

Well, we could run on about this indefinitely.   I think it will eventually work out in the consumer’s favor.  It really ticks me off to have to wait, however.  I am sure this subject has been covered over and over again in this forum but it does not make it any easier to accept and eventually “they” will pay for it.  <Insert icon of me getting off my soap box here>   

 

frenchbulldog:

JohnW248:

George,

Did you try to renew your DRM licencse? I wonder if everything is the same except the motherboard if that might help.

It quick and simple and if it doesn't work, nothing lost.

http://drmlicense.one.microsoft.com/Indivsite/en/indivit.asp

John, thanks for your info.  Unfortantly, I went out and bought an identical machine but it had completely new processor, drives, memory, different motherboard, etc.  I installed Vista Ultimate on the new machine.  I also have WHS but did not do a restore from backup.  Thanks for the tip. I will try it and report back if this works (to renew the DRM licence).

Well, John, I am sorry to say renewing the license did not work in this case. It was certainly worth a try. As you said it was very easy to check this but after restarting Media Center and even after reboot the computer I did a lot of testing of various dvr-ms files that would not work before and none of them would work now either.  But thank you for the suggestion.

I did learn some interesting things while testing that may help others reading this thread.  I discovered there were certainly some files that should have been “fixed” by renewing the license but I also found some other, let’s call them Classes of Files,  that MAY NOT be related ONLY to the dead computer but DRM in general.  Let me enumerate those classes for purposes of discussion here.

Class A- This is what I will call is the “classic case” that should have been fixed by renewing the license.  These videos were recorded on the old computer and could not be played at all.  I immediately get the Restricted Content message when I start to watch one of these files.  I have my VMC set to (where it can without interrupting another recording… which is most of the time) start recording the file 1 minute prior to the start of the program.  The video will work fine for the first minute but as soon as it encounters the first second of the Restricted program I get the Restricted Content message.  Nothing I do will fix this file so I can time-shift and later view it.

Class B- This is another class of dvr-ms files on my computer that should have been helped by renewing the license.  An example of this is a particular episode of The Mentalist that I recorded before the old computer died.  In this episode, we were able to watch the video and could fast forward/reverse the file as normal. But right in the middle of the file I got the Restricted Content error message.  Even after “rights were restored” there was about a 4 minute period in the program that I could not see. Actually, this seems to me like it might even be a bug in the VMC software. However, I don’t know that for sure.

Class C- This and all the following classes I describe probably have nothing to do with on old computer dying but still have to do with DRM.  This first class is represented by the hot series Mad Men.  No matter what I do I cannot time-shift any episode in this series.  I am guessing the provider of the content uses Media Center to stop all time-shifting by setting a code in the Media Center software.

Class D- This class of dvr-ms files is represented by those recording taken from Starz.  An example of this is the Movie Déjà Vu.  Apparently Starz does not allow time-shifted viewing of any of its movies.  At least it applies this to the particular movie mentioned here.  I don’t have any other examples of other Premium Channels to mention here so I cannot speak to other premium channels.

Class E- This class of files is represented by those movies taken from American Movie Classics.  I can time-shift and view these movies. I can fast-forward and reverse them.  However, I cannot remove the commercials from them.  However, Turner Classic Movie dvr-ms files, for instance, works fine for anything I want to do with movies recorded from this channel including removing the commercials.

Class F- This last class of files is represented by the movie Ali.  It is a fairly recent move but not as old as those aired on TCM or AMC.  I have found that I can time-shift and successfully view the entire movie in this class of movies (“older” than Déjà Vu but not as “old” as the TCM or AMC movies) as long as I DO NOT try to use the fast-forward or reverse function on the remote. If I do that, it immediately goes to the end of the move and displays the Restart, Done or Delete options in Media Center.  The only thing I can do then is restart the movie from the start and wait for it to “catch up” to where I was when I hit the fast-forward or I could delete the file or I could just hit Done and save the file for later viewing (If you could call it that J )

Question: is all of this caused by the fact that I have changed computers from the one that recorded this particular Class of dvr-ms file or do all you experience the same problems I am having with each Class?

 

There can be a couple of things going on here. Some of it depends on what and how you're recording.

Anything recorded with the current MC and ATI Cablecard Tuners have DRM built-in before the signal even hits MC. These recordings can be made on internal drives and directly attached drives (eSATA and USB and Firewire) but not on NAS. These recording will only play on the MC that recorded them and any extender that is connected to the MC.

Then there are analog and digital signals recorded with other tuners. Any analog signal can contain CGMS which is a flag on line 21 (if I remember correctly) that tells the MC and other devices that the program is either recordable, recordable but not dubable or not recordable. Your Starz movies and most on-demand will fall into this category. The effect is the same with digital, but the signal is in a different location and just a bit flag in the header (there is a full rundown of what's in the header in the SMPTE/EBU original specs for digital video and interchange).

Now in the US, the FCC has held that broadcast over the stations cannot place a do not record flag in their program. There are classic examples where this has been misused (big story in "TV Technology" last spring). MS has fixed this problem in MC TV Pack and in MC with KB955519 (which causes other problems for cable cards so there is another patch that fixes that but has problems with extenders and so it goes).

I would guess that the problem in the Mentalist is an errant CGMS flag (or bit if it was a HD broadcast) that triggered the error.

You can also get the error (as I found out) by connecting an external drive and not formatting it on the MC machines (back to those ownership issues). Once the drive is owned by the MC machine the restricted content error goes away. This is something else you can try if you take your old drive and stick it in a box so it can be directly connected to your machine and you change administor rights on all the files to the new administrator. Might also  be a big waste of time, but since you are seeing some things, it might help.

If you have recordings made with ATI Cablecard tuners, then nothing will help.

If you could have moved your old HD to the new machine and used the old install of Vista, the DRM License renew might have worked.

DRM is really clumsy to work with right now, it would be so much better if you could just issue an ownership to your recordings and then be able to plug and play them as long as you were logged on. They'd have to work out the file copy thing, but those guys in Redmond are pretty smart and they could do it. The hard part is getting through to the Motion Picture Industry that still thinks in terms of keeping track of prints and only licensing them for exhibition . . . but that's a story for another day.

As for the variations in things you can do with various dvr-ms files, that's probably due to the original coding of the source. Before I put in my cablecards, I could import dvr-ms files into Nerovision and edit them, create chapters and make dvds from them. I didn't have any HD recordings prior to cablecard so I can't speak to that, but I could do the sample vidoes shipped with Vista. I'm hoping with the relaxed DRM that once again I'll be able to work with the files in Nerovision and at least clean up start and end points of movies and add chapters and then burn the DVD to the hard drive and play it in MC or the extender.

John

JohnW248:

There can be a couple of things going on here. Some of it depends on what and how you're recording.

John

Hi John, I was away from my computer yesterday. Sorry for the delay.

Thanks for such a thorough response. It is obvious that you know a lot about DRM, substantially more that I do.  I am just a frustrated user (or should I say victim).

I am using Vista Media Center and a Hauppauge WinTV PVR PCI II (26xxx) PCI card for video recording.  My video source is Dish Network with a non-HD (in fact a quite old) set top box. I don’t see the model number on the front of the STB but if that is important I can probably find a way to get it.  Let me know.  I used to use a pretty advanced (for the time) DVR set top box from Dish. But when Dish, in their infinite wisdom, decided it was time to start charging me $6 per month just for the privilege of using the DVR that I had already purchased from them (i.e. so I could access to the Guide allowing me to select programs to record using the DVR) that pushed me over the edge towards getting my Media Center computer hookup.  That was several years ago and I have not looked back.  VMC outshines the Dish option and was so superior to what they provided I was instantly hooked on Media Center.  I know I am “preaching to the choir” on this issue but it continues to amaze me when I consider the capabilities of VMC over the satellite/cable providers options.  I guess I am just a geek at heart and like the extra control VMC give me.

Just for information, I do have a HP MediaSmart Connect in my network as well, and that extender works well. I am very impressed with its interaction with VMC and how easily it extends the VMC interface and video files to my other TV in the house.

I record to the hard drive that is my primary drive s in my VMC machine, but often move Recorded TV to my WHS machine for storage and play back.  I also record directly to a HP Personal Media Drive which is in a bay of my HP Computer (running VMC) and also to a external USB Drive attached to the VMC computer.   I have used two Add-ins for WHS in the past a like them a lot but they are not presently on my WHS Server because of some recent changes I have made.  I will eventually add them back to WHS as Add-ins.  These two Add-ins are:

 MyMovies

 (http://forum.wegotserved.co.uk/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=102)

and TV Manager

(http://forum.wegotserved.co.uk/index.php?autocom=downloads&showfile=55

John, I am not asking you to provide any additional information,  but wanted to respond to your very considered reply and let you know what my “recording conditions” were since you referred to the conditions being different depending on how one was recording.  Thank you very much for the information already provided in this thread.  However, if you want to shed any light or further thoughts they are welcome. 

Of course, if others have ideas I am interested in those as well.

Since the primary objective of my thread was to find some way to remove DRM from my dvr-ms files I would like to revisit the question raised in my initial post of this thread and an earlier response from to that post from Chris, the Moderator of this Forum.

In my first post in this thread I referenced a (what I think is new or an updated version of  a) piece of software that is supposed to remove DRM from all video files.

http://www.wmatomp3-converter.com/digital-media-converter.html

 Chris replied that that software would work to remove some DRM but not the DRM from dvr-ms files.  Since the software says it will remove DRM from ALL video files could either you Chris or your John or others who might like to join-in in this thread why it will not work for Media Center files?   I suppose I could and may eventually even ask the software supliere directly if dvr-ms files are supported (I don’t own the software yet, BTW) but is is not clear to my why this software would not work to remove DRM from Media Center files.

Any additional information anyone can provide on this would be appreciated and thank you very much for the considerable help already provided by John , Chris and Slightlyseven in this thread.

 

George,

I don't now of anyway to remove DRM from the MS files (current or future wtv versions).

But, can you play your files on other players? Media player outside of MC or Nero Showtime or VLT or some other player?

I tried a test tonight (I'm working with Cablecard Tuners which DRM every recording) where I recorded to a new Recorded TV folder and then copies it onto a NAS drive. Then I deleted the show from the original location and then copied just the show back into the original Recorded TV folder and it played. So it's possible to archive and return a recording but that's to the same system that recorded it.

Before I installed the cablecards, I could record NTSC-M material and then I could import the file into Nerovision 5, edit the program and burn a DVD of it. All this was SD stuff and I did have a sound synch issue of about .39 seconds, but I could copy the mpeg file and drop it onto the audio line and then use that and move it into synch with the picture.

But I can't do that with HD or any Cablecard source I've recorded.

BTW, I can't play any MC file on my XP machines or Mac. Just get a green screen and no sound so I don't really think there is a workaround to this problem short of getting your original machine running with it's original version of Vista and then burning off the shows onto DVD (which you could do by burning to DVD folders on a HD and then setting up the DVD library option). But you'll have to get the original machine running again somehow with as much of the original hardware as possible and then renewing the DRM license.

John

JohnW248:

George,

I don't now of anyway to remove DRM from the MS files (current or future wtv versions).

But, can you play your files on other players? Media player outside of MC or Nero Showtime or VLT or some other player?

I tried a test tonight (I'm working with Cablecard Tuners which DRM every recording) where I recorded to a new Recorded TV folder and then copies it onto a NAS drive. Then I deleted the show from the original location and then copied just the show back into the original Recorded TV folder and it played. So it's possible to archive and return a recording but that's to the same system that recorded it.

Before I installed the cablecards, I could record NTSC-M material and then I could import the file into Nerovision 5, edit the program and burn a DVD of it. All this was SD stuff and I did have a sound synch issue of about .39 seconds, but I could copy the mpeg file and drop it onto the audio line and then use that and move it into synch with the picture.

But I can't do that with HD or any Cablecard source I've recorded.

BTW, I can't play any MC file on my XP machines or Mac. Just get a green screen and no sound so I don't really think there is a workaround to this problem short of getting your original machine running with it's original version of Vista and then burning off the shows onto DVD (which you could do by burning to DVD folders on a HD and then setting up the DVD library option). But you'll have to get the original machine running again somehow with as much of the original hardware as possible and then renewing the DRM license.

John

Hi John,

Thank you once again for your well considered reply.  I have been thinking a lot about this issue lately, but my further discussions will turn philosophical and, I am afraid wordy and I don’t have the time or fortitude to write my next post on this subject yet.  I has to do with whether I will even continue to work with Media Center or not.  I just wanted you to know that I have not forgotten about your response or questions and that I am not ignoring you.  Thanks again for continuing the dialogue.

While I am not ready to tackle the further discussion (and perhaps even the request to submit a bug report on MS Connect (If I could even get in the beta test on Media Center at this point in time… I doubt it) and open this dialogue to Microsoft as well, there are some simple questions that you asked in your last post that I need to address.

1.     Unfortunately, I have formatted the drive that contained my Vista OS from the old machine.  So there is no going back at this point.  I am using that drive and some other hard drives from the old machine in my HP MediaSmart Server/Windows Home Server machine and some other of the old parts (e.g. memory/RAM) in my main workstation.  So much for reviving my rights to the old media from the old machine. It “ain’t gonna happen”!  Unfortunately, I had already done this before my first post here.

2.     I downloaded and installed VLC Media Player and it plays the video that contains problems created for me in the dvr-ms DRM laden files (except the Déjà Vu Movie from Starz) just fine, one of the main reasons I am considering abandoning the use of Media Center all together.

3.     I don’t know much about HD content yet.  I have an HDTV and Dish Network shows channels I can get that are shown in HD. The quality looks like HD to me but I’m no expert.  I am very happy with the quality I get when I can see it and it is not blocked by this blamed DRM stuff.  So I can't speak to your discussion of HD for sure. I just don’t know enough about it yet and I do not pay for the HD set top box Dish offers.  I don’t know if just running the video source through Media Center and viewing HD broadcast channels on Dish and having an HDTV makes my video HD, but as I said, it looks very, very good to me. I’m satisfied with it.

4.     I don’t understand what a Cablecard is.  Is that a credit sized card that fits in a cable card ready TV and allows you to avoid having a set top box?

I may address this thread again with my disgust with how DRM keeps law abiding comsumers for getting what they have paid for.  Of course, my view is slanted toward the consumer and not the movie industry.  Or I may just drop it and go some other route that does not use DRM.  I know it is not Microsoft’s fault. They are just implementing what the movie industry and other money grubbing middle-men want to do to make sure they take their cut from the consumer.  Obviously for that last statement you see what my philosophical discussion might read like should I decide to write it here.  I guess it will do no good but my take is similar to the post earlier in this thread made by sligtlyseven.  I may just have to say my piece here or try to get on MS Connect as a beta tester for Media Center to get my two cents in.

To John and others that have contributed to this thread. Thank you for trying to help with this mess!

 

frenchbulldog:

 Chris replied that that software would work to remove some DRM but not the DRM from dvr-ms files.  Since the software says it will remove DRM from ALL video files could either you Chris or your John or others who might like to join-in in this thread why it will not work for Media Center files?   I suppose I could and may eventually even ask the software supliere directly if dvr-ms files are supported (I don’t own the software yet, BTW) but is is not clear to my why this software would not work to remove DRM from Media Center files.

Any additional information anyone can provide on this would be appreciated and thank you very much for the considerable help already provided by John , Chris and Slightlyseven in this thread.

Most important thing to remember, when someone is trying to sell you something it will do anything you want it to up until the software company gets paid.

The DRM the program says it can remove likely uses an old WMDRM hack which has been patched within Windows for the past 2 years.  If you happen to have a Windows XP machine that hasn't had any Windows Updates, it might work for some WMDRM content, but not any DVR-MS content because the hack ever did anything with DVR-MS files.  If the program doesn't use that old hack, then what it likely does is just "support" audio files.  In this case it will play back the audio files, and in real-time record them from the systems mixer.  This creates a second generation copy without DRM.  More or less it is the same as holding a cassete recorder up to a speaker (with better quality).  There is no DRM break in this case.

That software company will tell you anything you want to hear, but don't expect it to actually do what you are looking for.  The company will take your money and run.

Chris - Moderator:

frenchbulldog:

 Chris replied that that software would work to remove some DRM but not the DRM from dvr-ms files.  .

Most important thing to remember, when someone is trying to sell you something it will do anything you want it to up until the software company gets paid.

The DRM the program says it can remove likely uses an old WMDRM hack which has been patched within Windows for the past 2 years.  If you happen to have a Windows XP machine that hasn't had any Windows Updates, it might work for some WMDRM content, but not any DVR-MS content because the hack ever did anything with DVR-MS files.  If the program doesn't use that old hack, then what it likely does is just "support" audio files.  In this case it will play back the audio files, and in real-time record them from the systems mixer.  This creates a second generation copy without DRM.  More or less it is the same as holding a cassete recorder up to a speaker (with better quality).  There is no DRM break in this case.

That software company will tell you anything you want to hear, but don't expect it to actually do what you are looking for.  The company will take your money and run.

I accept your answer, Chris.  Thanks for the reply. I will not be buying the software. After your reply, I am sure it will not work as advertised.

Thanks for keeping me for spending the money and wasting it.

George

I've converted a DRM protected recording successfully with the new Windows Live Movie Maker (Beta) under Windows 7. It converts to wmv, so you could convert to whatever you want after that.