RandyG:

You read a lot of meaning from one sentence.  "buggy" and "boggy".   I never said I hated it.  and it is still buggy, and <in a lot ways> boggy compared to XP, you can't deny that, lol ;-)  The actual point I was making was the force it down your throat attitude, which is abundant from MS.  Whether it be Vista, or DRM, or whatever they feel like imposing on you, the consumer.  They aren't customer oriented anymore.

Exactly how is releasing a new version of an OS "forcing it down your throat" all of a sudden? Upgrades are part of the reality of using computers. And thankfully so!

As for buggy/boggy - completely untrue, especially compared to XP! I mean, that's laughable in the extreme. My husband's XP box drives me crazy whenever I have to use it for some reason - or help him deal with some problem he is having with it.

Seriously - this is straying off-topic, but don't knock it if you aren't using it, or if you are trying to run it on ancient hardware. I know it's fashionable to slag Vista, but there's enough false information out there without people perpetuating it more.

As a beta tester of Vista and as a user of it on 4 of 6 systems on my network, I think Vista is a great system.  This is from a guy who spent 25 years designing operating systems.  The issue is and has always been drivers, e.g., Nvidia.

As far as Media Center goes, what other operating system offers HDTV?  Answer, none.  I am not happy with the many problems I have with VMC and my wife thinks it sucks in the extreme.  It is not close to being a mature product, but I keep saying (this is the third time in this thread) don't expect MS to fix it.  From a strategic direction, they don't care.  Between IPTV, Xbox, Zune, etc., they have their hands full and are not likely to pay much attention to this orphan child.  I think you will just have to live with it.

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dnr
edelan

It is very funny how when this affects Americans for 1-2 shows it becomes a major news story but when it affects hundreds (thousands?) of shows for a year or so in Canada then no one gives a damn!

@dnr - You asked what other system offers HDTV?  Well with the release of the Hauppauge HD-PVR then BeyondTV and SageTV will offer HD solutions from any provider, cable or satellite, without the hassle of the sometimes buggy CableCard (which incidentally is NOT available in Canada) and with very little DRM.

Therefore VMC is now in last place of these three Windows based PVR software solutions, at least until it starts to support this type of hardware.

 

RandyG:

Ya, baffling isn't it.   My kids will watch the same cartoon 20 times in a row if you let them.  Commercials and all.   Yet cartoons are one of the most commonly DRM'd "restricted from recording" things on cable.

We have the same problem here with Bell ExpressVu recorded through s-video.  Maybe 1 out of every 200 shows I want to watch get killed due to the CGMS-A flag these days, but more like 1 out of every 10-15 children's shows won't record.

I honestly don't know which way to scream about all of this.  I absolutely hate the way DRM is being implemented and how the customer is completely being ignored, but at the same time I can see why there is a need to protect content - and the reason for this is because every single HD show and movie can be downloaded through a torrent, for free - even stripped of all commercials.  It isn't difficult to see that millions and millions (even billions) of dollars are potentially lost due to this.

What I really hate is how DRM is completely failing to protect content, yet at the same time it is ruining our ability to do what we should legally be allowed to do - time shift content we pay for and share that content throughout our homes.  I also can't stand the potential abuse of DRM that we seem to be seeing over and over.

In my opinion DRM is an unfortunate necessity due to the current sharing of HD content everywhere.  The problem is how it has been implemented and how the focus never seems to be on the customer.

For example, when the broadcast flag is set, VMC should still record the content and allow us to watch it.  Same thing with CGMS-A flags.  The only thing it should be doing differently is wrapping it with DRM so it isn't easy to share over bittorrent.  For some insane reason, Microsoft instead seems to have decided their DRM isn't "secure enough", so instead they won't record the content at all.

Worse than that is how Microsoft doesn't recognise and implement appropriate DRM policies for other countries.  In Canada for example, CGMS-A needs to be ignored.  It isn't used here at all so if CGMS-A turns up on content, it needs to be treated as random noise - not treated as actual CGMS-A flags.

The reality is we absolutely need to get these issues in the media and make the general public aware.  This is the only way we'll have any hope of pressuring Microsoft into doing the right thing and using DRM to provide more to the consumer - not less.

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STB w/R5000HD USB I/O, Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, Quad Q6600, 4.0 GB RAM, ATI HD 3870 512MB, Ultra XVS 600W PSU, 3x SATA 500GB, 2x SATA 300GB, LG GGC-H20L, PVR-250, Toshiba 51H83 (51" HDTV), Yamaha RX-V2400 Amp, 5x Energy Speakers, SVS Sub, Harmony 880 Remote

Warning: This is a complete ad hominem attack!

dnr, if you spent 25 years designing operating systems and think Vista is a great system, then you must not have been very good at your job.  However, don't despair, there is probably a place for you at Microsoft.  Evidently being good at your job is not a prerequisite to work there.

WRK

HT Slider:

The reality is we absolutely need to get these issues in the media and make the general public aware.  This is the only way we'll have any hope of pressuring Microsoft into doing the right thing and using DRM to provide more to the consumer - not less.

That's why I made a fuss over it, and I'm glad other users have as well. Making a fuss doesn't guarantee Microsoft will do something, but NOT making a fuss guarantees Microsoft will do nothing. So please let them know how you feel.

kingwr:

Warning: This is a complete ad hominem attack!

dnr, if you spent 25 years designing operating systems and think Vista is a great system, then you must not have been very good at your job.  However, don't despair, there is probably a place for you at Microsoft.  Evidently being good at your job is not a prerequisite to work there.

WRK

I don't think there is any value in insulting everyone at Microsoft.

The reality is there are many extremely good programmers and many very forward thinking individuals working there.  Also, the problems we are seeing here are clearly related to big business decisions and management, not the guys and gals doing the coding.

I think we all agree that Media Center overall is an excellent piece of software that is well written and has a user friendly GUI.  If it wasn't for these ridiculous DRM policies that almost ruin Media Center we wouldn't be here ranting.

I do agree with you that whoever is making the decisions related to DRM and content protection isn't doing Media Center any favors at all.  He/she has clearly lost touch with the customer and what it takes to turn increased sales into $$$.  Perhaps it is the same person who believes there was no value in sharing Recorded TV with other Media Center PCs (softsled functionality) and Firewire w/5C support and/or other flexible HD content sources that could be used in multiple countries (like component input or HDMI input).  These decisions were all made by management and so far we haven't seen any evidence that they want to change their mind and do the right thing for the product.

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STB w/R5000HD USB I/O, Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, Quad Q6600, 4.0 GB RAM, ATI HD 3870 512MB, Ultra XVS 600W PSU, 3x SATA 500GB, 2x SATA 300GB, LG GGC-H20L, PVR-250, Toshiba 51H83 (51" HDTV), Yamaha RX-V2400 Amp, 5x Energy Speakers, SVS Sub, Harmony 880 Remote

You would have to understand my history with Vista.  Not happy...not happy at all...

However, back to the point.  As I said in this thread several months ago, I think the issue here is that raising public awareness and screaming to the high heavens is not going to do much good.  While there are still a handful of people (perhaps qualified) working on Media Center, I believe Microsoft's AADD plagued management has long since moved on.  This was never made more evident than in the complete lack of any mention of Media Center in Bill Gates keynote at Comdex/CES (I forget which). I think they want to focus on their IPTV products and sell them to cable companies and telecommunications providers.  Media Center has been relegated to just another included add-on to Vista, like MovieMaker and Majhong Titans. 

Remember Microsoft UltimateTV?  Same song, new verse.

WRK

wayner9:

It is very funny how when this affects Americans for 1-2 shows it becomes a major news story but when it affects hundreds (thousands?) of shows for a year or so in Canada then no one gives a damn!

that's because nobody likes canadians with their beady eyes and floppy heads

(south park reference)

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Marvin on Disapproving Rabbits

Could someone from Microsoft please post some sort of reply here so we at least know you are reading this thread. Even just "we are here", please.

We are posting this material to help make MS aware of issues and to make Media Center the best product it can be. Yes, we can be a little off-topic and we can be insulting and rude, but plesae don't ignore the purpose of our being here.

Thank You.

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Eagles may fly, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines (see bio for exception)

frickinmuck:

The fact is, Vista is a great OS, and much better than XP.

I've "upgraded" 37 machines from vista to XP

tangent aside


MS doesn't care about MCE (xp or vista)

if possible, they care even less about MCE in areas outside of the USA

I too find it laughable how everyone ignored this thread until at least 5 american families were affected

oh noez

seriously
come back in a year, with 20-50% of all your recordings boned, and then I'll listen to your sob story

Tikker:

frickinmuck:

The fact is, Vista is a great OS, and much better than XP.

I've "upgraded" 37 machines from vista to XP

tangent aside


MS doesn't care about MCE (xp or vista)

if possible, they care even less about MCE in areas outside of the USA

I too find it laughable how everyone ignored this thread until at least 5 american families were affected

oh noez

seriously
come back in a year, with 20-50% of all your recordings boned, and then I'll listen to your sob story

Ummm, aren't we on the same side here? I had no clue Canadians had trouble with this until a couple days ago. There are just more of us than there are of you, so it's going to be a big story when it involves us. Sorry to offend you. I think 0% of recordings should get "boned," so I think we're all on the same page.

As far as the XP vs. Vista tangent, my only complaint is that there are things in Vista that are different than XP for the sake of difference. Everything takes a few extra clicks if you really knew what you were doing in XP.

Differences for the sake of improvement are great. I don't mind learning new things for the sake of improvement. What I do mind is learning new things when the new things aren't any better than the things they replace. Much of Vista is different for the sake of difference. Other than that, I can take or leave Vista. And that's all I have to say about Vista vs. XP :)

The main issue here is that CGMS-A isn't even a valid flag in Canada, MS reps have known and aknowledged this fact in this thread over a year ago, and yet nothing has changed

if it suddenly is affecting americans, and suddenly gets a fix, that's almost a bigger slap in the face than just having it ignored completely...

Do you kinda see where we're going with this?   This isn't a new problem for MCE(xp or vista), it's not something MS wasn't aware of.

From Microsoft's point of view, if they fixed it for Canadians, all you'd have to do is say "I'm in Canada" and their DRM would be broken. They're obviously not willing to do that at this point. Which shows how ridiculous this whole business is.

I'm beginning to think Media Center will die unless this DRM goes away completely. In other words, bye-bye Media Center.

judolphin:

From Microsoft's point of view, if they fixed it for Canadians, all you'd have to do is say "I'm in Canada" and their DRM would be broken. They're obviously not willing to do that at this point. Which shows how ridiculous this whole business is.

Which is not unlike how if you say "I am in Canada" and OTA-HD is broken which is a total crock of BS?