wayner9:

RandyG:

It's been over 4 months since I first posted about this huge problem with CGMS-A and Canada.  There are other posts considerably older than mine.   If it hasn't been fixed by now, for an issue that really hurts every Canadian user on a DAILY basis, I just wouldn't hold your breath.  MS is intent on plowing forward with MORE drm, not less, no matter what the consequences.

Personally I don't blame MS - they are honouring the DRM flags in the broadcast stream.  The blame goes on the Canadian BDUs such as Rogers, Shaw, BEV, etc and the CRTC that doesn't have the gonads to step in and do anything about the situation.

What MS could do, as has suggested by others, is to ignore CGMS-A if the region is set as Canada.  That could, however, introduce other problems.

I blame Microsoft.  They need to man up and make it work.  Its not just the Canadian broadcasters getting it wrong.  I had problems with HBO more times than I could count.

Microsoft needs to make a stand here and let the broadcasters know they need to follow the rules.  Until they fix it they should ignore the CGMS-A copy never flag.  Hell they should Ignore the copy never flag period.  The flag should be illegal, the best they should get is copy once.

scuffs:

Microsoft needs to make a stand here and let the broadcasters know they need to follow the rules.  Until they fix it they should ignore the CGMS-A copy never flag.  Hell they should Ignore the copy never flag period.  The flag should be illegal, the best they should get is copy once.

You're apparently having trouble distinguishing between "reality" and "fantasy". You fantasize that the copy never flag shouldn't exist. The bad news is, it does, and it's legally enforced. Microsoft could open themselves to a nightmarish legal situation if they were to just ignore CGMS-A. Don't like the flag? Send a letter to your local senator and/or congressman, and let them know your feelings. 

This isn't Microsoft's battle to fight - they are, at best, caught in the middle. I know it's easy to blame the guy with the most money, but in this case, you should be whining at the FCC and the networks. And if you think CGMS-A is being put on content inappropriately, file a complaint with the FCC - they're more responsive than you'd think.

They've got billions to lose. You've got nothing in comparison. Why are you telling _them_ to put it on the line?

erwos:

scuffs:

Microsoft needs to make a stand here and let the broadcasters know they need to follow the rules.  Until they fix it they should ignore the CGMS-A copy never flag.  Hell they should Ignore the copy never flag period.  The flag should be illegal, the best they should get is copy once.

You're apparently having trouble distinguishing between "reality" and "fantasy". You fantasize that the copy never flag shouldn't exist. The bad news is, it does, and it's legally enforced. Microsoft could open themselves to a nightmarish legal situation if they were to just ignore CGMS-A. Don't like the flag? Send a letter to your local senator and/or congressman, and let them know your feelings. 

This isn't Microsoft's battle to fight - they are, at best, caught in the middle. I know it's easy to blame the guy with the most money, but in this case, you should be whining at the FCC and the networks. And if you think CGMS-A is being put on content inappropriately, file a complaint with the FCC - they're more responsive than you'd think.

They've got billions to lose. You've got nothing in comparison. Why are you telling _them_ to put it on the line?

Really?  

You know this thread is all about Canadian providers flagging 1/2 the shows on TV with CGMS-A "copy never", right?  (read post#1)    The FCC could give a hoot if a Canadian complains to them.   It's a whole different country, eh...


Who's fault is it?  Sure ain't the Canadian consumer who bought the PVR that can't record TV.  Yet we're sure the ones paying for this.

If I bought a new Samsung TV in Canada that couldn't pick up 1/2 the Canadian stations on cable, it is DEFECTIVE and by law must be repaired under warranty because it does not perform to do what it Samsung says it will do.

If I bought a new Chev truck that only runs when it wants to, they have to repair it because it is not working as it was represented when sold, a "running" vehicle.

If I bought a brand new notebook from DELL that was only capable of booting 3 times out of 5, yep, you bet, that's DELL's problem too.  A computer is supposed to boot all the time.

Yet, if I buy MCE in Canada, sold in Canada for the with the added express purpose of recording/timeshifting/watching TV, and it CAN NOT DO IT 3 out of 5 times.. that is whose fault?

There is not laws, no rules, no restrictions here for adding digital garbage like CGMS-A to an analog signal.   The cable companies figure if they can just add a 2-bit blip to the signal, MCE / VMC is toast.  PVR sales go up.  They didn't break a single law.  Yay.

If  100% of the providers in the destination country broadcast TV that is incompatible with the basic functionality of MCE/VMC, you should either NOT sell it there,  since it is not capable of doing what it is  represented to do...
OR - my preference -  FIX IT.    Geez.  This is a no-brainer, doesn't need a debate.

Sorry if a sound a bit ticked, but I am.   If the USA wants to play DRM games, that's fine.
Canada does NOT have the FCC enforcing the "VOD and PPV ONLY rules"
Definately the Canadian cable/sat providers aren't "playing nice".   I am quite sure their view on this is
"Hey, that's business.  If MS is so dumb to cripple their own product, they why not."

It's not fair to make the end-user pay for these stupid games though.   I feel very betrayed.

As Wayner said "What MS could do, as has suggested by others, is to ignore CGMS-A if the region is set as Canada". 

erwos:

Why are you telling _them_ to put it on the line?

Because they are the ones trying to sell the product.  They want to sell Media Center to people.  They want people using it not Myth TV or one of the other possible solutions.  Yes they have billions to loose but they also have Billions to fight this battle, we dont.  They have the choice of fighting it, or loosing by default.

erwos:

This isn't Microsoft's battle to fight - they are, at best, caught in the middle.

Sorry thats a BS copout.  They are selling a product.  The product does not work.  The problem isnt whose fault it is, or even why it doesnt work.  The problem is they are selling a product that doesnt work, and other people have products that do work. 

Lets take this to an extreme, just as an example.  Disney see's that in Canada the copy never flag is being used succefully to block third party recorders.  It decides to use the flag on all Disney channels.  Suddenly MCE can no longer record  Lost, Grey's Anatomy etc.  NBC CBS Fox all realize they can do the same.  Your nice fantsy $2000 Media center is now worth nothing.  Recycle the parts and use it as a normal PC.

You or I could try fighting this but frankly we would loose.  We just don't have the resources to win.  It looks like canada has already lost and if anything it is going to get worse not better. 

So the "Reality" here is that the best thing they can do is risk some money.  Sick some of thier lawers on a few cable companies, and introduce a couple of bugs that allow thier software to work.    If you think you or I have any chance of stopping this, your the one living in a "fantasy" world.  The most we could do is convince Microsoft its worth spending the money to find a fix for this.

Keep lying to yourself, because until they start at least trying to fix this, publicly, loudly, effectivly, they are selling us a product that is designed to not work. 

To add to Scuff's comment,
keep in mind that the PVRs that Shaw cable, Rogers cable, Bell, etc sell or rent have no problem whatsoever recording any of this content.   They certainly don't feel that they are breaking any laws.

scuffs, randyg - thanks to both of you for telling it like it is. this is the type of problem and buck-passing that ends up putting the consumer into a position where THEY will have to break the law to get what they want. if I want to watch certain shows - a service I PAY MONEY for the ability to do - I have no choice but to download them illegally.

there is no question that we are getting the shaft from both microsoft and the canadian cable companies, and it appears neither of them are going to step up and do anything about it. certainly the cable companies have no motivation whatsoever to do anything about it, and I'm sure the more hype online about this problem, the happier they are. if the word spreads about tv record problems with media center, then they stand to make more $ selling their products. microsoft, it would appear, would have more motivation to do something about it, but I am not going to hold my breath.

I have to repeat - the bad guys here are the Canadian BDUs and the CRTC.  IMHO Microsoft would be much better off if DRM didn't exist for music, video, etc.  They don't currently make much, if any, money from selling content and they could sell more OS's without such restrictions.  Stuff that they do sell would be so much more useful without DRM.  Steve Jobs recognizes this which is why he is pushing Apple to try to do away with DRM in the content it sells.

Where MS has put in very strong DRM, such as CableCard PCs, it is creating a new market and without DRM these products wouldn't exist - which they effectively don't for us Canadians right now.  But are you any better off if you don't put in DRM but then can't offer any functionality?  (By this I mean other PVR programs and/or OS's can't get certified for CableCards due to their lack of DRM).

MS does have an incentive to deal with this issue right now if they want to sell more Media Center PCs.  What percentage of MS' revenue/profits is represented by sales of XP MCE or Vista bought specifically for a Media Center PC - probably far less than 1%.  The more people hear about this issue the more they will tend to shy away from using a Media Center PC, but the problem is in the flags turned on by the Canadian BDUs and the lack of regulation around this in Canada.

I personally do not understand why the Canadian BDUs are doing this.  I don't think they make much, if any, money from selling PVRs.  They are using it as a loss leader to sell content.  I don't understand why they are doing this unless they want to shut Microsoft out of the living room before they become a significant force in that area.  But look at the alternative - in most of Canada Rogers supplies cable boxes from Cisco (aka Scientific Atlanta) and you can bet that they are also looking to increase their revenue from future synergies such as TV over IP, etc. which would squeeze out the cable cos.

wayner9:

I have to repeat - the bad guys here are the Canadian BDUs and the CRTC.  IMHO Microsoft would be much better off if DRM didn't exist for music, video, etc.  They don't currently make much, if any, money from selling content and they could sell more OS's without such restrictions.  Stuff that they do sell would be so much more useful without DRM.  Steve Jobs recognizes this which is why he is pushing Apple to try to do away with DRM in the content it sells.

Where MS has put in very strong DRM, such as CableCard PCs, it is creating a new market and without DRM these products wouldn't exist - which they effectively don't for us Canadians right now.  But are you any better off if you don't put in DRM but then can't offer any functionality?  (By this I mean other PVR programs and/or OS's can't get certified for CableCards due to their lack of DRM).

MS does have an incentive to deal with this issue right now if they want to sell more Media Center PCs.  What percentage of MS' revenue/profits is represented by sales of XP MCE or Vista bought specifically for a Media Center PC - probably far less than 1%.  The more people hear about this issue the more they will tend to shy away from using a Media Center PC, but the problem is in the flags turned on by the Canadian BDUs and the lack of regulation around this in Canada.

I personally do not understand why the Canadian BDUs are doing this.  I don't think they make much, if any, money from selling PVRs.  They are using it as a loss leader to sell content.  I don't understand why they are doing this unless they want to shut Microsoft out of the living room before they become a significant force in that area.  But look at the alternative - in most of Canada Rogers supplies cable boxes from Cisco (aka Scientific Atlanta) and you can bet that they are also looking to increase their revenue from future synergies such as TV over IP, etc. which would squeeze out the cable cos.

You can repeat it, and that's your opinion, I respect that. 

My opinion differs because if I pay for an OS that promises PVR capability in Canada, and it doesn't work properly because the standards for broadcast differ in this country, the software can't handle it, then it is the software's fault.  The world isn't required by any law to conform to USA DRM, and Media center needs to repect that if they are going to market PVR software on a global scale.

Pre RU2 MCE allowed you to still record shows (even copy never), just not transfer them to DVD or watch them on other computers.   That's timeshifting.  It's the way it should be in countries where cgms-a is not federally regulated.
 

wayner9:

... put in very strong DRM, such as CableCard PCs, it is creating a new market and without DRM these products wouldn't exist - which they effectively don't for us Canadians right now.  But are you any better off if you don't put in DRM but then can't offer any functionality?  (By this I mean other PVR programs and/or OS's can't get certified for CableCards due to their lack of DRM)....

I don't thing MS voluntarily closing the "analog loophole" by enforcing overly strict restrictions should be lumped in with digital content / cablecard / protected loop.   That system is designed and required for protecting against 1:1 perfect digital copying/distribution.  Which is an entirely different thing to flagging and preventing me from timeshifting an analog 20 year old repeat of "winnie the poo" for my three year old.   Analog is not the same, and MS enforces it voluntarily.

Okay, as if the whole "can not record issue" due to the "copy never" CMGS-A flag wasn't bad enough... now the following message is popping up intermitently over top of the Movie Central channels from Shaw on my system in BC....

Restricted Content
Restrictions set by the broadcaster and/or originator of the content prohibit playback of the program on this computer.
(set ontop of a blue screen background that prevents viewing of the LIVE broadcast)

Yes, this is not a recording of any type... this is trying to watch the channel live.
Are the cable companies (or their content providers) playing with another flag now besides the "copy never" one that is some how triggering MCE to block out the live feed?

Jessica? what causes this message to come up during live viewing of a channel?
Is this related to, or a progression of, the CMGS-A copy never issue?
I am doing anything different than before and have not added or changed anything to the already crippled (due to Shaw's abuse of the CMGS-A flag) MCE box.

Are you on Vista or XP?

---

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Thats the flag I was getting with HBO on 2005 when I decided to cancle it.  HBO that is.  $30 a month and I couldnt even watch it live half the time. /shrug

XP

I am getting the same thing as Mr. Sheep, although I am in the US.  I am using MCE 2005.

Just moved to a new place in New Westminster British Columbia, Canada.  Got Shaw/Rogers digital cable.

Plugged in my WMC 2005 RU2, was amazed at how fast and easy it was to set it up with the new content providor and get the guide all up and running with all my series shows automatically recording on new channels.

Then I wake up this morning with a pile of Recording canceled/stopped due to copywright blah blah.  I would say that I cannot record almost any "movie", even old 1980's movies playing on regular channels, but can record crud like Dr. Phil and cartoons.

So I guess my choices are to switch from Shaw back to Bell Express or to change my media center.  Bell may end up doing the same thing in a week so that doesn't seem like a great solution.  I guess it is time to try some of the other media center options that are out there. 

*EDIT*
A $100+ filter sounds like a good temporary solution.  Changing cable companies is another option.  However it would be free to try some of the other Media Centre solutions out there like MythTV.  How much more money do I want to throw at my $1300+ system to get it working the way it is advertized to?