I found the following information which may help MCE2005 users.  Here is the link:

http://blogs.msdn.com/astebner/archive/2006/04/14/576752.aspx

It does not help me with Vista...but those other users here you go.

Kevin

Note that that fix that Aaron linkes to only helps if the DRM store is
screwed up.

If a show has a copy-protect flag on it, then Media Center won't record it,
which is the intended behaviour (something that the fix on Aaron's blog
won't fix)..



--
Jason Tsang - Microsoft MVP

Read my blog for the latest in Media Center topics
(and other topics that interest me)
http://jtsang.blogspot.com

More information by me
http://jtsang.mvps.org
http://www.classicsunveiled.com

Find out about the MS MVP Program -
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx



wrote in message news:188749@10.240.6.244...
>I found the following information which may help MCE2005 users. Here is
>the link:
>
> http://blogs.msdn.com/astebner/archive/2006/04/14/576752.aspx
>
> It does not help me with Vista...but those other users here you go.
>
> Kevin
>

---

Jason Tsang - Media Center MVP
http://blog.jasontsang.ca

One approach that I think would resolve the majority of our Bell ExpressVu copy protection issues (and possibly all of the Canadian issues) would be to slightly change the timing and method that Media Center uses to deal with the copy protection flag, while still maintaining copy protection where it is genuinely set.

Jessica, can you confirm how Media Center currently deals with these flags?  My best guess is:

- While recording and playing back, Media Center is constantly monitoring line 21.  If the copy protection flag is set to do not copy for more than an accumulated few seconds, Media Center stops recording and/or playback.  In the case where it stops recording, it also deletes the show.  Note I have had some shows complete recording and only when being played back has Media Center decided it is copy protected (this is very rare - probably 1 out of several hundred that Media Center flags, stops and deletes during recording).

- While playing back, if the parental control level is set above the allowed threshold, Media Center pops up the password screen, but keeps playing the video (hidden) in the background for a few seconds.  If the parental control level drops back down, Media Center turns the video back on followed by a short duration of no sound; if the level doesn't drop back down Media Center eventually stops the video and waits for the password.

Can you confirm if it is actually Media Center, the dvd decoder, or the TV tuner card that interprets the video?  I recall some older TV tuner drivers disabling parental controls, so I suspect it is the TV tuner that interprets it and sets the flag on a per frame basis within the mpeg-2 stream.

Some situations where this causes problems unnecessarily:

- If the set top box was either on a copy protected channel prior to switching channels, there is a short period in time where Media Center records this copy protection.  As others have mentioned and I have also experienced, currently this will often cause Media Center to stop recording and delete the show.

- If Media Center is starting to record a couple of minutes before the start of the show (default behaviour; soft padding) and the previous show is copy protected, I believe Media Center will again unnecessarily stop recording the intended show.

- If the copy protection flag is set randomly for very short periods of time throughout the show, commercials, or transitions between commercials and the show, eventually Media Center will decide to stop recording.  This is how the copy protection flag is causing I would estimate for more than 99% of the copy protection issues with ExpressVu (with our particular selection of recordings).

- If the parental control level randomly blips to a higher level than allowed, it causes the blue password screen to pop up for the duration of the level change (if it is short enough), and both the video and sound are interrupted (sound for longer than the video).  There are many TV shows, Snowtrax being probably the worst on channel 417, where the shows are constantly flashing the parental control screen for literally 1 or 2 video frames, followed by interrupted sound.  This can occur every few seconds and can render the show unwatchable.  The work around I have found is to pause the video before a bad stretch of video and frame by frame (which can take a while) skip through the video until the parental control screen pops up and stays up (because it is paused).  If I now enter the password, Media Center will playback the entire show seamlessly.

In each of these cases it could be noise in the recording somewhere in the video production that is causing the issues, as opposed to intentional use of copy protection and parental controls (or possibly as suggested by some, short blips are being deliberately injected to cause problems with 3rd party PVRs).  I think it is also possible that the TV tuner could be misinterpreting the video stream and causing the issues.  With ExpressVu at least, what I find is it is very rare that a show has the copy protection clearly deliberately set throughout the majority of the video stream (typically "special showings" of movies only).  If it was only these shows that were treated as copy protected I doubt I would have lost more than 1 or 2 recordings ever due to the copy protection flags.  One show in particular that did have the copy protection flag set a few weeks ago was "Spiderman: The Ultimate Villian Showdown" (on one of the kids channels).  After failing to record several times, we tried to manually record it while watching live TV.  Commercials would record, but the entire video was flagged as do not record and once the show started again, Media Center would stop recording.  This was the only time I had ever experienced this on a non-premium channel.  Similarly if a video contains an elevated parental control level intentionally it is set throughout the entire video (typically turning off again at commercials).

Can Media Center's method of dealing with both the copy protection flag and parental control levels be improved to ignore these short few second blips where the levels change and ignore recorded content in the first few seconds and all of it prior to the actual show started (padding time - a pop-up could block the video with protected content message during playback instead of stopping the recording)?  Perhaps the ability to skip ahead or scan through the next few minutes of video and see what the settings are before making a decision on popping up the password screen and/or stopping to copy.  With the copy protection flag, also could the duration of time it is set before the video stops recording be adjusted such that is is a reasonably high percentage of the recording (maybe 30% of the time to account for commercials) instead of a total a certain number of seconds?

Alternatively a more functional change for us Canadians would be to simply to allow recording and playback of copy protected content - just not allow it to be played back on other systems or written to DVD.   This wouldn't solve the parental control problem and that really needs to be resolved also (one work around might be to allow the password to be entered, even if a show is not copy protected, and allow Media Center to play back the show with parental controls turned off temporarily).

---

STB w/R5000HD USB I/O, Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, Quad Q6600, 4.0 GB RAM, ATI HD 3870 512MB, Ultra XVS 600W PSU, 3x SATA 500GB, 2x SATA 300GB, LG GGC-H20L, PVR-250, Toshiba 51H83 (51" HDTV), Yamaha RX-V2400 Amp, 5x Energy Speakers, SVS Sub, Harmony 880 Remote

Ugh, too many words. :-)

Basically, it comes down to this: we've looked at our implementation for CGMS-A and what the threshold is for determining whether something is being protected or we're seeing a glitch or a blip or whatever in the stream and interpreting it as CGMS-A. We really do believe we're doing the right thing with how many times we need to see the CGMS-A flag before we decide something is intended to be protected.

But you're right: it's possible that we could change our implementation in Canada only. That said, the issue is in the hands of our policy people, and there's not much more I can do except continue to reiterate to them that people are seeing this issue.

---

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

MrSheep:

Ok it has taken far longer than the 3 weeks that Shaw was suppose to take to respond to the CRTC, however they have finally responded to my CRTC complaint and here is what SHAW response was:

Dear -------,  (CRTC reps name removed out of respect for his help)

 This is in reply to your email that references customer inquiries the CRTC has received concerning encoding HDTV signals with copy protection flags.  This is apparently preventing certain consumer equipment from recording these programs.  The inquiries also suggest that Shaw is doing this to encourage the sales of Shaw’s HD PVRs. We apologize for the delay in responding. We were not aware that a further response was required given the matter was raised outside of the normal complaint process.   

We can confirm that Shaw Cable does not alter or curtail any of the programming that we receive and distribute from programmers with respect to any copy protection flags.  The content is passed through seamlessly to any device as it is received.  Any copy protection flag that is in the content has been placed there by the rights holders, or by the programming service in accordance with their contractual arrangements with the rights holders. As the Commission is aware, right holders do this to protect their rights and to prevent unauthorized duplication and transmission of the content, particularly with respect to digital content.  

Shaw’s network controlled HD PVRs allow content to be recorded for personal use, in accordance with the terms of agreements with the rights holders for this type of equipment. However, the playback of the content to a digital recording device (eg. A PC or DVD-R) will have Copy Control Information (CCI) and Copy Generation Management System for Analog (CGMS-A) flags in place (if present in the content) to prevent unauthorized digital duplication and transmission of the content. With respect to customers who are having problems trying to record content on their PCs, this has nothing to do with Shaw.  We suspect it is a compatibility issue, or a rights management issue.   

We hope this information is helpful to you.

----------

Wow.  Shaw lied in their response.  It is technically impossible for to "pass through seamlessly" CGMS-A on signals that are transmitted DIGITALLY (the majority of "problem" channels are in the digital package).   CGMS-A is an analog flag which is trasmitted on line21 of an analog signal.  That line does NOT exist in a digitally transmitted signal.  Nor does any form of CGMS-A.
So the CGMS-A has to be - added - at the cable box, after decoding the signal, prior to it coming out the S-Video port.  

It is possible, for example a couple particularly problem shows for my 3 year old, "Toopy and Beenu" and re-runs of 20 year old "Winnie the Poo" , that the "owners" of these shows decided to insert CGMS-A "COPY NEVER" into the show.  Then the owners transmit these shows to SHAW by ANALOG (oh so unlikely).  Then Shaw encodes and transmits the show digitally, TRANSLATING to some equivalent digital  broadcast flag.  Then the cable box TRANSLATES it into CMGS-A signals, adding "Copy Never" to it.   Even in this unlikely case, the CGMS-A is -still- not "passed thru".  It is translated at least a couple times before it hits your S-Video port.

Shaw seems to have skipped around the issue that they are also adding "Copy Never" to 1/2 the NON-HD content too...
Was your initial complaint only about HDTV broadcasts, or did Shaw "steer" the answer that way?

RandyG:

So the CGMS-A has to be - added - at the cable box, after decoding the signal, prior to it coming out the S-Video port.

I agree 100% that this is happening.  I've noticed this problem with DIRECTV.  DIRECTV is clearly 100% digital, so it's hard to put CGMS-A on the broadcast.  However, back when I had HBO at school my HBO recordings where indeed protected.

So, the only way that it could of been added was via the STB.  My guess in this case is that DIRECTV's EPG data triggered the STB to add the CGMS-A data before it's output.

---

Chris Lanier
The Green Button Forum Moderator

JessZahn:

Ugh, too many words. :-)

Basically, it comes down to this: we've looked at our implementation for CGMS-A and what the threshold is for determining whether something is being protected or we're seeing a glitch or a blip or whatever in the stream and interpreting it as CGMS-A. We really do believe we're doing the right thing with how many times we need to see the CGMS-A flag before we decide something is intended to be protected.

But you're right: it's possible that we could change our implementation in Canada only. That said, the issue is in the hands of our policy people, and there's not much more I can do except continue to reiterate to them that people are seeing this issue.

Can you respond to this portion of the post?

"- If the parental control level randomly blips to a higher level than allowed, it causes the blue password screen to pop up for the duration of the level change (if it is short enough), and both the video and sound are interrupted (sound for longer than the video).  There are many TV shows, Snowtrax being probably the worst on channel 417, where the shows are constantly flashing the parental control screen for literally 1 or 2 video frames, followed by interrupted sound.  This can occur every few seconds and can render the show unwatchable.  The work around I have found is to pause the video before a bad stretch of video and frame by frame (which can take a while) skip through the video until the parental control screen pops up and stays up (because it is paused).  If I now enter the password, Media Center will playback the entire show seamlessly."

I know we're talking about CGMA and this is parental controls - but they are both encoded within the video on line 21 and I suspect, at least with ExpressVu, the CGMA and parental control issues are related.

Again, the problem (IMO) is ExpressVu most likely being sloppy and allowing junk on line 21 (possibly intentionally though?) but it does drastically effect our enjoyment and experience with Media Center.

Can anything be done about this for Vista (or has anything already been done)?  As an absolute minimum, something that would allow us to temporarily turn off parental controls perhaps by letting us type in the password even if the parental level had dropped back down and making the password stick.

---

STB w/R5000HD USB I/O, Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, Quad Q6600, 4.0 GB RAM, ATI HD 3870 512MB, Ultra XVS 600W PSU, 3x SATA 500GB, 2x SATA 300GB, LG GGC-H20L, PVR-250, Toshiba 51H83 (51" HDTV), Yamaha RX-V2400 Amp, 5x Energy Speakers, SVS Sub, Harmony 880 Remote

RandyG:

Shaw seems to have skipped around the issue that they are also adding "Copy Never" to 1/2 the NON-HD content too...
Was your initial complaint only about HDTV broadcasts, or did Shaw "steer" the answer that way?

Hi RandyG,

Actually no, I don't have HDTV yet.
I have the Motorolla DCT-2224.

So my complaint certainly wasn't HDTV focused or based.

 

RandyG:

Wow.  Shaw lied in their response.  It is technically impossible for to "pass through seamlessly" CGMS-A on signals that are transmitted DIGITALLY (the majority of "problem" channels are in the digital package).   CGMS-A is an analog flag which is trasmitted on line21 of an analog signal.  That line does NOT exist in a digitally transmitted signal.  Nor does any form of CGMS-A.
So the CGMS-A has to be - added - at the cable box, after decoding the signal, prior to it coming out the S-Video port.  

I think Shaw is getting confused about the difference between 5C encryption for firewire, in which case they probably pass along the original signal, and CGMS-A which they seem to be altering.  In some ways I am really shocked that they, along with other Canadian BDUs like Rogers and Shaw, are even aware that CGMS-A exists!  They seem to ignore much of the new technology unless it is to their benefit rather than the customers' benefit.

And by the way, it is Toopy and Binoo (or Toupie et Binou in the oringal francais edition).

Sing along - Toopy, that's me and here's my friend Binoo.  Toopy, Toopy, Toopy, Toop, Toop, Toop and Binoo!

wayner9:

RandyG:

Wow.  Shaw lied in their response.  It is technically impossible for to "pass through seamlessly" CGMS-A on signals that are transmitted DIGITALLY (the majority of "problem" channels are in the digital package).   CGMS-A is an analog flag which is trasmitted on line21 of an analog signal.  That line does NOT exist in a digitally transmitted signal.  Nor does any form of CGMS-A.
So the CGMS-A has to be - added - at the cable box, after decoding the signal, prior to it coming out the S-Video port.  

I think Shaw is getting confused about the difference between 5C encryption for firewire, in which case they probably pass along the original signal, and CGMS-A which they seem to be altering.  In some ways I am really shocked that they, along with other Canadian BDUs like Rogers and Shaw, are even aware that CGMS-A exists!  They seem to ignore much of the new technology unless it is to their benefit rather than the customers' benefit.

And by the way, it is Toopy and Binoo (or Toupie et Binou in the oringal francais edition).

Sing along - Toopy, that's me and here's my friend Binoo.  Toopy, Toopy, Toopy, Toop, Toop, Toop and Binoo!

LOL, thank you.  Yep, that's the song, my apologies to Binoo.

"Shaw is getting confused"  You can bet your *ss they didn't have some unknowledgable twit draft the reply to the CRTC.   Although CRTC doesn't really care about CGMS-A,  they can still fine them or pull their license.  I would be willing to bet that's why Shaw carefully worded the response geared to "HDTV signals" and Shaw’s HD PVRs" in there, to confuse the issue that they are doing this over the regular ANALOG set top box outputs for SDTV channels too.  There has to be some "anti competition" laws they are at least bending here by preventing competing PVR technology from recording the shows their own box  conveniently has no problems with.

"They seem to ignore much of the new technology unless it is to their benefit rather than the customers' benefit."   Perhaps for the sole purpose of making their self-branded PVRs the only way to time shift or record your favorite shows?  $ sales is a powerful incentive to use/abuse a new unlegislated technology.  With Vista coming pre-installed on every new computer you buy, picking up a tuner for $80 is a lot cheaper than paying Shaw $400 or $800.  I'm sure they know Media Center kicks butt on a set top box for features/functionality.   Spewing "Copy Never" all over the place, Media center is 1/2 crippled, competition is eliminated, set top PVR sales go up since it's the only game in town.

RandyG:

Perhaps for the sole purpose of making their self-branded PVRs the only way to time shift or record your favorite shows?  $ sales is a powerful incentive to use/abuse a new unlegislated technology.  With Vista coming pre-installed on every new computer you buy, picking up a tuner for $80 is a lot cheaper than paying Shaw $400 or $800.  I'm sure they know Media Center kicks butt on a set top box for features/functionality.   Spewing "Copy Never" all over the place, Media center is 1/2 crippled, competition is eliminated, set top PVR sales go up since it's the only game in town.

I am not so sure that Shaw, Rogers et al really expect to make much, if any, money out of PVRs.  In fact they might even prefer if PVRs didn't exist as it would increase the market for VoD and I am sure that they prefer VoD to PVRs as they have much more control over it.  Here in Ontario you can buy a PVR from Rogers (or Futureshop/Best Buy) and I don't think the price is set to make them a killing - they want to make the money by selling you content.  In fact they have occasionally sold SD digital boxes for $100 and you get a $100 programming credit so the box was essentially free.  To me that looks like the Gillette model so they shouldn't care too much about the hardware.

Personally I think that in a few years the cable cos. will be out of the hardware business - just like they got out of the cable converter business.  Once we have something like CableCard v3.0 the digital cable functionality will finally be built into the TVs and PVRs.  And by that time analog cable will also be gone as it is in their best interests to kill it as it will get rid of folks "sharing" cable and gives them more control over their network as every TV will have to be hooked up to an authorized set top box or CableCard (or something similar).  In such a world they will know how many TVs are hooked up to the network and will work to maximize the profits in such an environment.

Ok, so it doesn't very promising that either Microsoft, the cable companies or the CRTC are going to help solve the problem any time soon.

I certainly don't expect Jessica will be comfortable making filter recommendations, but being that there are a lot of other eyes on this thread of users that may have had some past experience with filters...

Can anyone speak specifically about an inexpensive CGMS A filter that they have purchased and where they got it?

I gather these units are not available in the local BestBuy or Circuit City? So that sounds like it leaves buying them over the internet?

Something like this: http://home.cfl.rr.com/filter/ sounds like it would do the trick, but the web site doesn't exactly inspire me with confidence that the seller is anything more than an E-Bay store.

Are there reputable places that sell these products? Are they available in someplace like Fry's (albeit across the boarder) or even a more reputable online supplier?

It would be really interesting to hear posters experiences and advice on this topic, as it seems to be our last recourse.  I am hoping for something more informative than the previous suggestion to google CGMS Filter.

Since they seem so hard to find, I am also left asking the question of "are they legal to distribute" and ultimately "to buy"? Or, are they only available through these underground fly by night types of places and from guys standing in dark alleys wearing long trench coats? :-)

I have also had the same problem with restricted content

I am with Bellexpress Vu in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

the channels that are unrecordable for me are all the movie central channels,
and the womens network.

Usually what happens is it stops recording anywhere from 3 to 45 mins into
a program depending how long the show is.  But mostly stops after 3-5 min.
into the recording.  We have found a solution to my problem for now.  We
re-did our computers from scratch, but did not do any of the roll up 2 updates
for the media center, and for now (cross my fingers) I am recording on all
movie centeral channels, I have not tried to record on the womens network yet.

Hope this helps someone
.

cathyb:

I have also had the same problem with restricted content

I am with Bellexpress Vu in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

the channels that are unrecordable for me are all the movie central channels,
and the womens network.

Usually what happens is it stops recording anywhere from 3 to 45 mins into
a program depending how long the show is.  But mostly stops after 3-5 min.
into the recording.  We have found a solution to my problem for now.  We
re-did our computers from scratch, but did not do any of the roll up 2 updates
for the media center, and for now (cross my fingers) I am recording on all
movie centeral channels, I have not tried to record on the womens network yet.

Hope this helps someone
.

I don't know why I didnt think about that when HBO stopped me from recording them.  I can have one of my machines running pre rollup 2 just to record HBO then share it out to the other machines.  I have been worried about how I was going to record big love next month.

Another work around that I'm fairly sure will work if you have a PVR-250 is to find "the right" older driver.

I can't remember exactly which version it was, but the "latest" version of the generic PVR-250 (non MCE) driver back in mid-late 2004 didn't appear to have functional line 21 interpretation.  Parental controls and closed capturing didn't work plus I never saw anything ever about copy protection (as soon as I updated I recall seeing a change to the files wrg to copy protection - but at the time MCE played them anyway).

I personally won't be trying this though as in our case the most important thing to us is to get parental controls working better, not worse...  The ~5-10% of the shows that fail to record hasn't become a major problem for us yet (mostly children's channels and the woman's network; we don't have HBO).

BTW, this particular driver will work with both MCE and non-MCE PVR-250 cards.

I still would like to understand exactly how line 21 data works.  Because of the above, my guess is the TV tuner extracts the line 21 data and passes it digitally to MCE (or more likely encodes it digitally within the mpeg-2 stream and therefore the DVR-MS file).

---

STB w/R5000HD USB I/O, Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, Quad Q6600, 4.0 GB RAM, ATI HD 3870 512MB, Ultra XVS 600W PSU, 3x SATA 500GB, 2x SATA 300GB, LG GGC-H20L, PVR-250, Toshiba 51H83 (51" HDTV), Yamaha RX-V2400 Amp, 5x Energy Speakers, SVS Sub, Harmony 880 Remote