Hi guys,

I've been looking around, waiting for my idea of the perfect 16:9 desktop LCD for MCE to arrive. So far I haven't seen it, the world is creeping closer, but still every new model I see has one or more "gotchas".

Because (at least in Britain) the prime source of HD material is likely to be the Sky satellite system and it's already well known that the appropriate set top boxes will only play to a HDCP equpped output device, top of my list is that the display has to have a DVI input with HDCP. I know that's not (yet) an MCE consideration but I'm not prepared to keep buying new stuff every few years to keep up!

My ideal display should be somewhere between 20" and 30". I hope it will have a true native resolution of 1920 x 1080. Ideally in addition to HDCP/DVI, it should have component inputs. RGB scart and analogue VGA would be nice too, but these last two are not vital.

I don't particularly want a built in TV tuner. That's what MCE is for, and the big tuner equipped displays seem to have lots of compromises to turn them into bad TVs instead of good monitors!

I looked at Dell's 24", (1920 x 1200, DVI etc., but no HDCP) and Video Seven's 27" (1366 x 768 with HDCP, nice, but 1920 x 1200).

Anyone seen any monitors that fit my requirements?

RS

I've said it a couple of times previously on this forum, but no one has taken my advice yet. I love my Sony FWD32LX1. It's part of their professional series and is designed specifically for HD and PC interaction.

Sony specs it out as 1366 X 768 optimal resolution, but the truth is that 1280 X 720p(60Hz) looks much better and it will run 1920 X 1080p(60Hz) flawlessly (something I've confirmed with their tech support but has yet to make it to the specs apparently. I got 1080p support when ATI released their latest drivers 5.10). I've had zero problems with it running on DVI with my ATI 9800pro. The DVI port is HDCP and it supports component RGB connections natively through an HD15 port which can double as VGA if you set it to do so in the menu. I use the Sony concurrently with my media center on DVI and have connected it to a motorola set top box for live HD via the component rgb. If the 15pin RGB is not sufficient, you can buy an accessory card that will give you RGB BNC X 5 connectors. I've sold this unit to a couple of customers and have had no complaints. No native tuner but it's available as an accessory card -- not that you want it or would need it. Please let me know if you have other questions -- I will be happy to answer them.

jason

Forgot to give you the link:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=10007&p=8&sp=20131&id=78016

and should add that it uses a WEGA engine, is wall mountable (with accessory) and comes in either black, white, or silver. Black and silver look great, but haven't seen the white.

Thanks mammoth - that looks good. I love the multiplicity of inputs too. I wonder why it looks better at 1280 x 720 when its native resolution is 1366 x 768? I'm guessing that it has an internal scaler, could it be that your sources are 720p and something gets lost in translation?

But anyway, it's the sort of unit I'd have confidence building an MCE system around if I was selling it to a customer. Anything that has SONY on the front seems to go down well. Now, if one were to combine it with that stunning new Sony Vaio MCE with DVD changer, what an outfit that would be! And I see they do a 40" version too.

But (I always want more) I wonder how long it will be before a native 1920 x 1080 version appears. LCD technology/prices seem to improve each month!

RS

Honestly, I just don't think they got the specs right or maybe altered them for marketing purposes. 1366X768 sounds a lot better than 1280X720, right? I think that's all it is. As for the 1080p, it looks better and behaves better than 1366X768 -- just hard to read text when it is that small. And don't get me wrong, 1366 looks great, but there is just a slightly noticeable variation in columns of text e.g. news web sites or word documents that makes me keep it at 720p. I think I may monkey around with my windows settings to adjust font size this weekend so that I can start using 1080p instead. 1080p is here, friend!

Buy an LCD TV from LG Electronics, either the LX1, LX2 or LP1 series (sold in these sizes: 26", 32", 37" and 42"). They are probably the only LCD TV's in the market today that supports 1:1 pixelmapping in 1360x768 and 1366x768 via DVI-D and HDMI, and they support HDCP encryption too which will be important with Windows Vista with build in HDCP protection. 1360x768 is udsed because most graphic card hardware only support resolutions that are  multiples of 8, and 1366 is not a multiple of 8. So instead the LCD leaves 3 pixel rows black in each side so you can still have 1:1 pixelmapping with a 1360x768 resolution which the graphic card hardware supports. 1360x768 is a special supported resolution of the LG LCD TVs, becuse they know that graphic cards from ATI and NVIDIA are not able to output 1366. The the LG TV accepts a 1360x768 signal instead and makes sure three pixel colums in each side are always tunred of in the 1360x768 mode so you can still obtain 1:1 pixelmapping from ATI and NVIDIA graphic cards. You will only miss about 0.4% of the total image by missing three pixel columns in each side, but still obtain 1:1 pixelmapping rather than stretching the 1360:768 signal to 1366x768 which would mean a much worse picture becuse you wouldn't have 1:1 pixelmapping anymore then.

Almost all other LCD TV's in the market today don't support 1:1 pixelmapping in the native resolution. Even if they accept HDMI or DVI-D input in the native resolution of 1366x768 (or 1360x768), they still downscales the signal and upscales it again before it reaches the panel. The lack of 1:1 pixelmapping is why 1280x720 looks better on many 1366x768 LCDs than 1366x768 / 1360x768. Like the example Jason posted above about Sony FWD32LX1 that lacks 1:1 pixelmapping and therefore shows a worse picture in the native resolution of 1366x768 than 1280x720. TVs without 1:1 pixelmapping are not very well suited for PC use, even if Sony states it is specifically desinged for PC use. LCDs well suited for PC use should offer to have no internal scaling in the native resolution. You never see any professional monitors that does any internal scaling like the Sony "professional" LCD TV does. The Sony TV might offer a good picture, but it would have been better with 1:1 pixelmapping so all the scaling could be done at the PC. If you input a PAL or NTSC SD resolution source to the Sony TV from a HTPC, then you need to scale the picture twice. First it is scaled up to 1280x720 at the PC and send to the Sony LCD TV. Then the Sony TV scales it again from 1280x720 to the native res. of 1366x768. The TV also scales the computer graphics. Of course if you have a 1280x720 source, it doesn't matter if the scaling to 1366x768 happens at the PC or the TV. But a HTPC handles many other resolutions than 1280x720 and then you will have two scalings. With a 1:1 pixelmapped TV you would have no scaling at the TV side. So computer graphics wont have any scaling at all on a 1:1 pixelmapped TV as opposed to the Sony for example. This means the text in you browser for example is much sharper on a 1:1 pixelmapped TV/monitor.

With Philips, Sony, Samsung and almost all others LCD TV brands except LG Electronics you can forget about 1:1 pixelmapping via HDMI or DVI-D. Some of them offer 1:1 pixelmapping via VGA, but not via digital interface. I know this is true for Samsung for example. That is why yo get a better picture via VGA on a Samsung than via DVI-D.

It is very important to use either HDMI or DVI-D with HDCP support if you want to be able to play HDCP protected material in the future. Things like HD-DVD, Blu-ray and HDTV will be HDCP protected and you wont be able to display it in HD resolution without HDCP support.

Please bear in mind that because an LCD TV supports inputs in its panles native resulution doesn't nessasarly mean it supports 1:1 pixelmappping. A LCD with a native resolution of 1366x768 might downscale the signal internally to before it upscales it back to the same resolution. Support for inputs in native resolution is useless if it doesn't support 1:1 pixelmpping as well. Many of the so called HD-Ready TV's that accept HD signals also downscales this HD signal and process it before it upscales it to native resolution again and send it to the panel.

In a Danish HIFI/Video forum is a topic called "The ultimate LCD TV for HTPC" with an updated list in the firtst post of LCD TVs that support 1:1 pixelmapping via DVI-D or HDMI with HDCP support. As you can see the only ones found so far is the three top lines from LG Electronics (LX1, LX2 and LP1). Many other brands have been tested, but no other model with 1:1 pixelmapping via HDMI /DVI-D with HDCP has been found. Two outdated Medion 2/" and 30" models that aren't in the market anymore was found to have 1:1 pixelmapping support via DVI-D, but they didn't support HDCP encryption. So far no other brand/model than the ones shown from LG has been found to have 1:1 pixelmapping support via DVI-D or HDMI. Check the first post here to see an updated list:

http://www.hifi4all.dk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27344

The first post will be updated if other models are found, no matter which brand it is. If you find any other LCD TVs with 1:1 pixelmapping via HDMI or DVI-D, please PM me.

The model names in the diferentseries might be slightly different depending on which country you are in.

Here is a Norwegian forum with a similar topic. They also ound out LG supports 1:1 pixelmapping: http://www.minhembio.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=93608&st=360&searchtime

 

Read more about 1:1 pixelmapping here: http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90884

This test pattern can be used to test 1:1 pixelmapping:

 

Here is another test pattern to test 1:1 pixelmappping:

And a third pattern:

 

WOW! This is really useful - thanks! It explains so much!

I had always thought I should avoid using a TV as a monitor, as so many folks seemed to have problems with resolutions and things like overscan. For this reason, I'd more or less decided to buy a big monitor as an earlier poster described. The problem is, these are significantly dearer, not only because they are PC or broadcast grade devices, but also because the volumes produced and price competition is much lower than for consumer devices like a TV.

Now I'm heartened to think that there are sensibly size sensibly priced devices already out there that are also available in Switzerland - I see there's a 37" LCD TV model LG RZ 37 LZ 31 which is described as LG LCD TV 37", 1200:1, 500cd/cm2, 16x9, HD ready, HDM, XD Engine, RZ 37LZ31, so I guess that might be one of the models you mentioned. At least I have a chance of carting an MCE laptop to the dealer and checking before taking one away!

And you're correct - anyone who spends a lot of cash on a big screen without HDCP is crazily shortsighted!

Strange that MS chose 1366 as a native MCE resolution when it's not dividable by 8. I wonder if that's why mammoth's (earlier poster) Sony professional monitor looks better at 1280 although the monitor is spec'd as 1366?

Blue Button - does that mean you have to set a custom resolution of 1360x768 with your LG?

Anyway - just ordered myself a Dell 16:10 24" monitor (without HDCP!) They have a sale on until 27 October, and it's about 30% cheaper than usual, so now I will be able to enjoy native widescreen MCE on my desktop PC whilst waiting for my new apartment and that elusive big screen TV.

RS

AFAIK the LZ series doesn't support 1:1 pixelmapping via HDMI or DVI-D. As already mentioned in my previous post, the only LG series so far that support 1:1 pixelmapping is the new LX1, LX2 and LP1 series. These three series has a newer and better panel (with improved EEFL backlight) than LZ anyway.

LX1 and LX2 are identical internally, the only difference is the color and LX2 has a swiwel stand as oppsed to LX1 which only has a tilting stand.

LP1 is the most advanced LG TV, with more inputs and features and all the whistels and bells and detachable speakers. But the panel itself is the same in all three models (LX1, LX2 and LP1). But if you only want to use it as an HTPC monitor with 1:1 pixelmapping, there is no difference between the three.

LX1 and LX2 are only sold in 26" and 32".

LP1 is only sold in 32", 37" and 42".

Don't buy one of the old LZ models, you will regret it. Buy an LP1, LX1 or LX2 instead with the better EEFL backlight panel and 1:1 pixelmapping.

The only 37" model with 1:1 pixelmapping is 37LP1.

Quote: At least I have a chance of carting an MCE laptop to the dealer and checking before taking one away!

Unless your Laptop has a DVI-D output you can't test this! Most laptops still only have analog 15 pin D-SUB VGA output. But some of the new laptop models from for example Acer, Fujitsu-Siemens and Apple have a DVI-D output as well.

Many LCD TV brands that support 1:1 pixelmapping via VGA, don't support it via DVI-D. This is the case with Samsung for example and that's why it's better to use VGA than DVI-D to connect a HTPC to a Samsung LCD TV. The probelm is just that when we start to get HDCP protected HD-DVDs or HDTV, then you can't use the VGA port anymore. That's why it's important to get a LCD TV/monitor with 1:1 pixelmapping via an HDMI and/or DVI-D port with HDCP support.

Quote: I looked at Dell's 24", (1920 x 1200, DVI etc., but no HDCP) and Video Seven's 27" (1366 x 768 with HDCP, nice, but 1920 x 1200).

1920x1200 isn't 16:9 but 16:10 (or 8:5 if you like).

4:3 is the same as 16:12. So 16:10 is somwhere in-between 4:3 and 16:9. 16:10 has a wider aspect ratio than 4:3 but not as wide as 16:9.

1920x1080, 1366x768 and 1280x720 are all 16:9 resolutions. Do the math if you like, it's easy to calculate.

 4:3 = 1.33:1

16:10 = 1.60:1

16:9 = 1.78:1

 

 

Quote: The DVI port is HDCP and it supports component RGB connections natively through an HD15 port which can double as VGA if you set it to do so in the menu.

Componet and RGB are two different things. Either the signal is RGB or Componet (analog YPbPr or digital YCbCr), it can't be both at the same time. Componet (YPbPr / YCbCr), and RGB are two different color spaces. You can convert in-between the RGB colorspace and the Componet  (YPbPr / YCbCr) colorspace with electronics, but there's no such thing as a componet RGB signal, these are two different methods of representing a video signal. Componet signals (YPbPr / YCbCr) have brightness and color components of the signal maintained separately.

It is true the Son TV supports  RGB/Component via HD-15 D-Sub.

But the way you wrote it, it could be intrepeted as Componet and RGB was the same thing. The TV accepts both types, but not at the same time.

WOW I had no idea this was such a painfull process. I guess my question would be: to go to a 60", is there anything that big that will support a DVI to HDMI input from a MCE PC that will display 16:9, and have HDCP abilities??

True - that's why in my second post I said "Dell's 16:10 24" monitor". But thanks anyway....

True! It is a painful process - hence my original question. I see hundreds of posts here from folks who have laid out $$$$'s on their dream Plasma/LCD/Projector, only to find it won't display properly. Hence my post.

Relying on the manufacturers data seems hopeless and one almost has to be an expert to analyse if a particular display device has a useable true resolution. Even the expensive Sony professional broadcast quality LCD mentioned earlier has an apparantly true resolution of 1366 x 768, yet looks better at 1280 x 720. Something odd there, if my desktop LCD has a certain resolution, my PC automatically uses that if I connect by DVI and that's what I'd expect with a digital input on a TV, but as we so often see, it ain't the case!

Add in the PCs graphic card behaviour depending if you've connected via S-Video, component, VGA or some flavour of DVI and it's an expensive lottery that we, the consumers are paying for. Ever tried lugging a 50" plasma back to the Internet dealer because "the pixels are not square"?

I like the idea of a list of displays that truly do behave, and display correctly, as on the box.

RS

Maybe Microsoft should encourage TV manufacturers to add a "Made for Windows MCE" sticker to any TV that will correctly display a PC picture from a digital input?

RS