al74:

You can't be serious. I dare you to get a reliable info from an HP or Dell CSR.

HT Slider was talking about a purchase decision - I don't think that HP or Dell are shipping the TV Pack, so he wouldn't be talking to them anyway.  I'm assuming that HT Slider is looking for a Media Center from an OEM known to be selling TV Pack, such as S1Digital.

Cheers,
Andrew

al74:

You can't be serious. I dare you to get a reliable info from an HP or Dell CSR.

I quite agree.

The response I would expect from one of these OEMs would go something like this:

“Yeah, yeah, sure, sure, is good computer, you buy NOW!!!”

 

---

i7 920 | ASUS P6T Deluxe | Triple-Channle DDR3 3x1GB | MSI GTX260 | Seagate 750GB | OCZ 600W Stealth X | LG GGW-H20L| XBox 360 | XBox 360 HD DVD Drive | HDHomeRun | Hauppauge HD PVR | Vista Home Premium

AndyC:

Given that TV Pack is only available through the purchase of a large OEM Media Center, your best bet for getting the information you are after is to talk to the OEM that you are thinking of purchasing from, asking them these questions.  They will have (or at least should have!) done a thorough evaluation of the product they are selling, and should be able to tell you if it's going to meet your expectations.

I gave your suggestion a try and got literally nowhere; other than deciding I don't want to purchase a Media Center PC from the high end sourced at the moment.  The large OEMs I called didn't even know what the the TV Pack was or if it was included or not.

The smaller, high end Media Center retailers responded with:

1. All of our Media Center PCs ship with the TV Pack and there is no way to purchase a system without it.
2. TV Pack is a wonderful addition to Media Center, enabling enhanced HD capabilities, improved guide and an overall better experience.
3. When I asked about issues with the TV Pack I was told they were not aware of any issues at all and the TV Pack works perfectly.
4. When I asked about h.264 support I was told it doesn't work as shipped and I would need to ask Microsoft for further details.
5. When I asked specifically about the broken API's required for 3rd party addins, I was told 3rd party addins are not supported so they can't provide any assistance here.
6. When I asked specifically about the core software failing to comply with the Media Center SDK, something I expect to both work and be a part of what I was purchasing; I was told that this relates to 3rd party addins and again they don't offer any support at all for addins.  I should talk to Microsoft directly about this since they (the MC retailers) don't support the SDK.
7. When I asked if they became aware of broken API's would they be willing to investigate the problem with Microsoft and I was told "no", I should talk to Microsoft directly about problems with APIs and if patches would be available.
8. When I asked about the option of me purchasing the system without the TV Pack because I was aware of too many issues, I was told that is not an option, nor is it supported. 
9. I asked if there was any way I could purchase an "older" system without the TV Pack and was again told "no".
10. If I was to install my own copy of Vista I was told I would would loose all support from them.
11. I asked if they would go to bat for us customers for the missing API's with Microsoft and was essentially told "no" since they don't support 3rd party addins.

As I suspected, it was a total waste of time.

Microsoft is the only source we have for answers.

After talking to the high end Media Center suppliers, the only conclusion I came to was it was not worth spending the extra money purchasing a system from them right now.  With all of the issues with the TV Pack and the total lack of 3rd party addin support through these suppliers, I can only conclude that at this time it makes much more sense to purchase a system through a high volume, low price retailer (assuming there is no TV Pack) - or to build my own.

I do like the idea of purchasing a turn key system, complete with a nice HTPC case, but if it means paying more money for a system that doesn't work properly and doesn't support the core features from the SDK - no thanks.

---

STB w/R5000HD USB I/O, Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, Quad Q6600, 4.0 GB RAM, ATI HD 3870 512MB, Ultra XVS 600W PSU, 3x SATA 500GB, 2x SATA 300GB, LG GGC-H20L, PVR-250, Toshiba 51H83 (51" HDTV), Yamaha RX-V2400 Amp, 5x Energy Speakers, SVS Sub, Harmony 880 Remote

Sounds like really poor support from the "high end" retailers - I'd "name and shame" them if I were you, as the whole point of buying from them is to get someone who knows what they are talking about, and can provide the right support for their system.

Cheers,
Andrew

Sounds to me from reading this thread that Microsoft is the company that clearly should be "named and shamed," since they are ultimately the company not willing to provide any information or support to users of their own product!

Actually, we were one of the OEMs that HT Slider spoke with. Just to clarify, we are aware of the issues that TV Pack introduces with respect to thrid party add-ons. However, unfortunately, we're no in a position to do much about it as we have no ability to change the way Media Center works. In response to some of the other questions:

• We have about a thousand things that we ask Microsoft to fix in Media Center. We pester them constantly about improving features, fixing things and helping customers. However, we try to win the battles rather than fighting every skirmish. We can't fight for everything. And because the functionality issue is with third party add-ons that we don't support, then it should be up to the developers of those add-ons that need to pester Microsoft about fixing the issues. We can't go in to bat for everyone. We wouldn't get any work done.
• We deploy standard hardware and images on all our systems. When we change hardware, we need to update all our images. We are not a "custom" system builder. We build systems in quantity and if we customized every system, we would go out of business due to support calls. We're very careful about managing our hardware specs and images (and drivers, etc). To provide the high level of support and serivce we provide, we need to manage our hardware and software builds well. We often get customers wanting different video cards, drives, tuners, features, etc. Unfortunately, we just can't customize every build for every customer. All our current systems ship with TV Pack installed, which, because it's installed by us, I don't believe any customers have had problems with (and I strongly believe adds functionality). So it's not possible to ship our current hardware with an older image because the drivers won't be correct and again, we'll have a support nightmare.
  
• By the same token, if a customer installs their own version of Vista, then it's not the version that we had fully tested and tweaked, so again, we can't be responsible for supporting someone else's software on our hardware.

I hope that explains some of the reasons why we do things the way we do. We're not trying to be flippant, and we do understand the issues, but we can't be everything to everybody, as much as I would like to.

Thanks,

Paul

---

www.S1Digital.com

kingwr:

Sounds to me from reading this thread that Microsoft is the company that clearly should be "named and shamed," since they are ultimately the company not willing to provide any information or support to users of their own product!

I don't understand this sentiment - the software is provided to OEMs only, and they are responsible for providing support for the Microsoft software that they ship.  If you have an issue with Windows of any sort on your Dell PC and you call Microsoft, as soon as they get the OEM product ID they will tell you to call Dell.

I can appreciate Paul's response about not being able to be all things to all people, but ultimately it's up to the OEM to support the product, when they have provided an OEM rather than a retail licence with the machine.

Don't get me wrong here - I agree that there are a lot of things broken in TV Pack, and as a developer I'm unhappy with that, and I'm also unhappy that it isn't more broadly available so I could develop for one version of the platform only.   What I have trouble with is the lack of balance on the forum at the moment.

Cheers,
Andrew

S1Digital:

Actually, we were one of the OEMs that HT Slider spoke with. Just to clarify, we are aware of the issues that TV Pack introduces with respect to thrid party add-ons. However, unfortunately, we're no in a position to do much about it as we have no ability to change the way Media Center works. In response to some of the other questions:

• We have about a thousand things that we ask Microsoft to fix in Media Center. We pester them constantly about improving features, fixing things and helping customers. However, we try to win the battles rather than fighting every skirmish. We can't fight for everything. And because the functionality issue is with third party add-ons that we don't support, then it should be up to the developers of those add-ons that need to pester Microsoft about fixing the issues. We can't go in to bat for everyone. We wouldn't get any work done.
• We deploy standard hardware and images on all our systems. When we change hardware, we need to update all our images. We are not a "custom" system builder. We build systems in quantity and if we customized every system, we would go out of business due to support calls. We're very careful about managing our hardware specs and images (and drivers, etc). To provide the high level of support and serivce we provide, we need to manage our hardware and software builds well. We often get customers wanting different video cards, drives, tuners, features, etc. Unfortunately, we just can't customize every build for every customer. All our current systems ship with TV Pack installed, which, because it's installed by us, I don't believe any customers have had problems with (and I strongly believe adds functionality). So it's not possible to ship our current hardware with an older image because the drivers won't be correct and again, we'll have a support nightmare.
  
• By the same token, if a customer installs their own version of Vista, then it's not the version that we had fully tested and tweaked, so again, we can't be responsible for supporting someone else's software on our hardware.

I hope that explains some of the reasons why we do things the way we do. We're not trying to be flippant, and we do understand the issues, but we can't be everything to everybody, as much as I would like to.

Thanks,

Paul

I'm not an Apple fanboy, but their total hardware/software control approach starts to make sense to me more and more. I don't see a future for MSFT with this terrible product support.

This is not about balance or fairness, this is about good policy versus bad policy.  I have said it many times before, and I will remind you again: Just because this is how Microsoft does business doesn't mean that it is the right way to do business or that we should all simply accept it. 

You want to "name and shame" an OEM because they won't provide support for the bugs and shortcomings in your product?!?  How do you expect them to answer those questions or support those issues when Microsoft doesn't provide any support?  They don't have the code to fix the bugs; they don't control the SDK; . . . I don't even know why I bother anymore.

If we're moving off topic to the broader issue...

Can you explain to me what has *changed* in Microsoft's way of doing business that has caused the level of ranting that is going on on TGB at the moment?   All I can see is a bunch of people throwing their toys out of the pram because they can't have what they want.  Again, I'm not saying that I'm happy with the situation, but nor am I happy about the ranting spoiling what is otherwise a great forum.

Cheers,
Andrew

al74:

I'm not an Apple fanboy, but their total hardware/software control approach starts to make sense to me more and more. I don't see a future for MSFT with this terrible product support.

Oh Apple is much better of course. They really listen to their customers. Like including MMS and cut and paste into the iPhone which I think customers have been clamouring for since the first phone was released :). IMHO Microsoft is a LOT more transparent and responsive than Apple ever was/is. Apple refuse to acknowledge product defects even when there are way more people discussing the issue than there is on this forum. At least MS and OEMs have a presence here. And I'm not just saying that because we sell MS product. :)

---

www.S1Digital.com

S1Digital:

al74:

I'm not an Apple fanboy, but their total hardware/software control approach starts to make sense to me more and more. I don't see a future for MSFT with this terrible product support.

Oh Apple is much better of course. They really listen to their customers. Like including MMS and cut and paste into the iPhone which I think customers have been clamouring for since the first phone was released :). IMHO Microsoft is a LOT more transparent and responsive than Apple ever was/is. Apple refuse to acknowledge product defects even when there are way more people discussing the issue than there is on this forum. At least MS and OEMs have a presence here. And I'm not just saying that because we sell MS product. :)

 

I don't want to get into this war because as I said, I'm not here to argue that Apple is better. I don't have any Apple products. I know though, that they at least recieve products updates and enhancements on regular basis. To get an update to the operating system of your Windows Mobile phone you need in most cases buy a new phone.

To the point, my case is that when the software provider and hardware provider are not the same person, they can put the blame on the other, which is exactly what the OEMs and MSFT are doing in this thread. Don't provide important updates to your loyal customers (lets not forget that Vista is being sold not just by OEMs but as an over the shelf product) unless they buy new expensive hardware from an OEM who chooses to include the update, and even then, if you have issues, don't come to us but to the hardware provider, which has limited knowledge and control over bug fixes.

AndyC:

If we're moving off topic to the broader issue...

Can you explain to me what has *changed* in Microsoft's way of doing business that has caused the level of ranting that is going on on TGB at the moment?   All I can see is a bunch of people throwing their toys out of the pram because they can't have what they want.  Again, I'm not saying that I'm happy with the situation, but nor am I happy about the ranting spoiling what is otherwise a great forum.

Cheers,
Andrew

 

Let me tell you why. First, Microsoft representative on this forum implied for a long time that MSFT is working on important bug fixes like sub-channel support (and don't argue that nobody promised it to us, search the threads and see that the context implied that we should expect an update). This promise was broken when we realized that we won't get a formal update unless we buy a new PC. Even now, no one who purchases a new PC from the major OEMs can even have a formal document specifying the difference between the new and old version of VMC. Moreover, such person can't even get a guranty that the update will be included with his new PC, and even if he is lucky (or rich enough to buy a PC from a premium OEM) to get a PC with the update he pratically has no support for this update.

The 80's and 90's are gone. People expect and deserve a decent service and we had it. Now you understand?

al74:

AndyC:

If we're moving off topic to the broader issue...

Can you explain to me what has *changed* in Microsoft's way of doing business that has caused the level of ranting that is going on on TGB at the moment?   All I can see is a bunch of people throwing their toys out of the pram because they can't have what they want.  Again, I'm not saying that I'm happy with the situation, but nor am I happy about the ranting spoiling what is otherwise a great forum.

Cheers,
Andrew

 

Let me tell you why. First, Microsoft representative on this forum implied for a long time that MSFT is working on important bug fixes like sub-channel support (and don't argue that nobody promised it to us, search the threads and see that the context implied that we should expect an update). This promise was broken when we realized that we won't get a formal update unless we buy a new PC. Even now, no one who purchases a new PC from the major OEMs can even have a formal document specifying the difference between the new and old version of VMC. Moreover, such person can't even get a guranty that the update will be included with his new PC, and even if he is lucky (or rich enough to buy a PC from a premium OEM) to get a PC with the update he pratically has no support for this update.

The 80's and 90's are gone. People expect and deserve a decent service and we had it. Now you understand?

"Now you understand?" - nope.   Your post doesn't explain what has *changed* in Microsoft's way of doing business.  The software is OEM only, and as such is supported by the OEM who elected to ship it with their systems. 

This is the text from the OEM end-user licence agreement (or similar, pulled off another website not from the actual text) "PRODUCT SUPPORT. Support for the SOFTWARE is not provided by Microsoft Corporation, or their affiliates or subsidiaries. For SOFTWARE support, please refer to Manufacturer's support number provided in the documentation for the HARDWARE. Should you have any questions concerning this EULA, or if you desire to contact Manufacturer for any other reason, please refer to the address provided in the documentation for the HARDWARE."

OEMs pay significantly less for their software than we do at retail, because they take on the support responsibility for the software on the systems that they ship.  This is the same as it has always been.

Cheers,
Andrew

Perhaps nothing has changed, Andrew.  Perhaps we are all just finally fed up with it!  I know that is the case in my situation.  I became a "child on the pram"  after spending two years hearing about DirecTV's partnership with Microsoft to deliver digital content into Media Center, the announcement of the HDPC-20 at CES, the year long selection of testers for an alleged beta test, the shipment of HDPC-20s to beta testers, and then the apparent disappearance off the face of the earth of the HDPC-20, all with no explanation by Microsoft or DirecTV.  Perhaps that is the way Microsoft has always done business (remember UltimateTV?  I got burned by that one too), but for me this was the final straw.