Well, there's been a few people on this site reporting the same problem in the US (not on the Ask Jessica forum but on the Vista MC General one), so either there's a noise issue, or some cable providers in the US are not adhering to the FCC directives. It does seem like Canada is bearing the worst of the brunt right now due to the lack of consumer protection on this issue.

Honestly, we're using internally-developed tools that we can't release to the public. That's part of why I was joking earlier about a field trip for me to Canada. But we found a way to get the data we need without travel.

---

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

austinite:

Well, there's been a few people on this site reporting the same problem in the US (not on the Ask Jessica forum but on the Vista MC General one), so either there's a noise issue, or some cable providers in the US are not adhering to the FCC directives. It does seem like Canada is bearing the worst of the brunt right now due to the lack of consumer protection on this issue.

By noise issue do you mean noise on the cable line or noise in a figurative sense?  The reason that I ask is that I have these problems and I have digital cable so noise on the cable line shouldn't affect it.  Is it possible that the guide flags it as do not copy?

Media Center does not take copy protection flags from the EPG data.

--
Jason Tsang - Microsoft MVP

Read my blog for the latest in Media Center topics
(and other topics that interest me)
http://jtsang.blogspot.com

More information by me
http://jtsang.mvps.org
http://www.classicsunveiled.com

Find out about the MS MVP Program -
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx



wrote in message news:178479@10.240.6.244...
> austinite:Well, there's been a few people on this site reporting the same
> problem in the US (not on the Ask Jessica forum but on the Vista MC
> General one), so either there's a noise issue, or some cable providers in
> the US are not adhering to the FCC directives. It does seem like Canada is
> bearing the worst of the brunt right now due to the lack of consumer
> protection on this issue.
> By noise issue do you mean noise on the cable line or noise in a
> figurative sense? The reason that I ask is that I have these problems and
> I have digital cable so noise on the cable line shouldn't affect it. Is
> it possible that the guide flags it as do not copy?
>

---

Jason Tsang - Media Center MVP
http://blog.jasontsang.ca

Always see this happen on "Take this house and sell it" on the W network this is on Shaw (west coast) so it is not even rogers specific.  I don't think this is at the network side but it is the flag.  There is another channel that is mainly movies with no commercials.  None of them ever record but it is not PPV or anything.

DavidinCT,

I think your experience shows that R2 and the similar feature added to Vista are at the root of this issue.  I looks like we will need to rebuild and go pre r2 which is a huge hassle but at this time it is the only option as post r2 you are just playing russian roulette with recordings.  It won't take long for people to drop mce altogether since most people don't even know about TGB or other such forums.

If MS fixes this in an update I will upgrade to Vista tomorrow.  Until then, I agree, there is no reason.

RandyG:

Hi Jessica.
There are a few other discussions about CGMS-A here as well.

I am on Shaw in Canada, and they are putting "Copy Never"' on a TON of shows, all the movies, even lots of kid's shows my three year old likes to watch.  Even reruns of Reba that my wife likes.

This is not PPV, or VOD.

I know it's CGMS-A "copy never" because I am an electronics junkie, and a professional programmer.  I trapped the signal on line-21 on my oscilloscope.   Then I made a circuit that blanked it out.   And that fixed it, period, no more guessing.  It's not noise.


Further,
There ** ARE ** laws, in the USA, for CGMS
The MOST prohibitive copy protection (that can be applied by the cable company) is:
OTA broadcast - Copy Freely (EMI=00)
PPV / VOD - Copy Never (EMI=11)
Anything Else - Copy Once (EMI=10)

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr76.1904.htm
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/pdf/47cfr76.1904.pdf

( all the rules are in http://wireless.fcc.gov/rules.html )

This problem appears to be centered to Canada.   None of the above rules apply here.  No rules apply here for CGMS, actually.   So the cable companies, so far Shaw, and recently it appears Star Choice, and Rogers, have decided to abuse it.

My response from Shaw was "ya, we know.   We don't support Microsoft PVRs, complain to them, not us.  If you want to record everything again, buy a Shaw PVR, it has no problems recording any channels"

This is really offensive.  How high up did you get with Shaw?  I am working on the same thing the solution is to repave the box and use pre R2.  Is it not totally insane we have to do this?  It is very, very clear they are doing this to push their OWN $800 PVR box.  You would think the CRTC would come down on them for this!

Anyone in Canada please submit your complaint at:

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/RapidsCCM/Register.asp?lang=E

petej:

DavidinCT,

I think your experience shows that R2 and the similar feature added to Vista are at the root of this issue.  I looks like we will need to rebuild and go pre r2 which is a huge hassle but at this time it is the only option as post r2 you are just playing russian roulette with recordings.  It won't take long for people to drop mce altogether since most people don't even know about TGB or other such forums.

If MS fixes this in an update I will upgrade to Vista tomorrow.  Until then, I agree, there is no reason.

Thanks, I am still on MCE 2005 w/o UR2, and with my 2005 box, it will stay that way. As I said, It is a *software problem*, detecting the wrong type of flags (I confirmed this with cable company/TV station for one show that I know always had a problem).  I started it all with the first version of MCE, then when I could get MCE 2005 off the shelf, I picked it up day one. So, I have seen it all.

Very true, if you install Rollup 2, you are taking a chance, some people have never had a problem, others have. I have done a complete backup of my machine, so if Microsoft wants me to try it with a loggging program, I might be willing to do it.

As for Vista, I am actually looking forward to making the upgrade but, if it's still got all these DRM issues like I had in the beta, then there is no point. I might try the trial upgrade, because I can always do a complete restore of my machine. The main reason for wanting to go, No new features will come for MCE 2005, only Vista, so sooner or later, you wont have a choice if you want the new features, unless a 3rd party makes them

---

-Dave

MCP, MCSA, MCSE 2003
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Technologists
Windows Vista Connected Exp:Home Theater for Sales professionals

Home theater specialist (10+ years)

Glad you bumped this thread - I just got information yesterday that I needed to post.

We worked with an MVP (Jason Tsang) in Canada to capture lots of streams from all different channels to see whether the cable company was putting CGMS-A flags on content that we wouldn't expect to find it on.

The end result is, the cable company is doing this. We can't tell if it's deliberate or accidental on their part; however, we don't just interpret noise in the signal as "Copy Never" or another CGMS-A flag. We require that we see a certain number of those flags within a particular amount of time for a given show - and if we do, we obey them. That could mean stopping a recording or failing to record something at all.

So this isn't, to us, a software problem. Media Center obeys CGMS-A flags. I know pretty much everyone here wishes we didn't, but we do.

But it does seem, at least to me, that it's a business and relationship problem with the cable companies doing it. I am informing the right people here about what we found, and it's my hope that they take this up and work with the cable companies to solve it. I can't guarantee any particular action, and honestly I can't guarantee any action at all. But I can and will push for it.

---

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

That's awesome Jess

At least we have some help in propogating the issue

Thanks for the update.  I think this thread and many other threads on this topic show that this is a serious issue.  Ultimately an investment in a media center is useless if the cable companies do this even sporatically.  In addition, clearly MS looses out too as many people will blame MS and not the cable company.  The cable company will say it is MS's problem and the customer will get fed up and purchase a PVR from the cable company and surprise it will work.  I think if someone higher up approaches the cable companies it could be resolved.  The major players are Shaw (West Coast) and Rogers (East Coast).  Please do let us know if you hear anything on this.  Thanks again for your efforts!

Thanks Jessica for making the findings from our test public to everyone
here. At the very least, we've confirmed that things are working from what
Microsoft can control (i.e. the Media Center software side).

I have nothing nice to say about Rogers (tv side), so I won't say anything
at all.

--
Jason Tsang - Microsoft MVP

Read my blog for the latest in Media Center topics
(and other topics that interest me)
http://jtsang.blogspot.com

More information by me
http://jtsang.mvps.org
http://www.classicsunveiled.com

Find out about the MS MVP Program -
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx



wrote in message news:179439@10.240.6.244...
> Glad you bumped this thread - I just got information yesterday that I
> needed to post.
>
> We worked with an MVP (Jason Tsang) in Canada to capture lots of streams
> from all different channels to see whether the cable company was putting
> CGMS-A flags on content that we wouldn't expect to find it on.
>
> The end result is, the cable company is doing this. We can't tell if it's
> deliberate or accidental on their part; however, we don't just interpret
> noise in the signal as "Copy Never" or another CGMS-A flag. We require
> that we see a certain number of those flags within a particular amount of
> time for a given show - and if we do, we obey them. That could mean
> stopping a recording or failing to record something at all.
>
> So this isn't, to us, a software problem. Media Center obeys CGMS-A flags.
> I know pretty much everyone here wishes we didn't, but we do.
>
> But it does seem, at least to me, that it's a business and relationship
> problem with the cable companies doing it. I am informing the right people
> here about what we found, and it's my hope that they take this up and work
> with the cable companies to solve it. I can't guarantee any particular
> action, and honestly I can't guarantee any action at all. But I can and
> will push for it.
>

---

Jason Tsang - Media Center MVP
http://blog.jasontsang.ca

JessZahn:

...The end result is, the cable company is doing this....So this isn't, to us, a software problem. Media Center obeys CGMS-A flags. I know pretty much everyone here wishes we didn't, but we do...I am informing the right people here about what we found, and it's my hope that they take this up and work with the cable companies to solve it. I can't guarantee any particular action, and honestly I can't guarantee any action at all. But I can and will push for it.

Well, let's say an environmentalist put up a hand painted sign on a USA highway that said "Please drive 10 mph on highways".
So Microsoft built a car that would only go 10mph on the highway.  Because the hand painted sign suggested they only go that fast.  Not because any law said so.   Then you buy the car, and wonder why it only goes 10 mph when you're on the highway.  It wasn't advertised to have such a disability.

Then MS releases a bulletin to "fix" all the previous cars.  Now all the previous Microsoft cars only go 10 mph on the highway too. 
(owners are upset, they used to go 100 mph)

Now Canadians are really upset.  Especially since nobody even put any signs up here, and every other brand of car still goes 100mph !


Dumb analagy?  Maybe, but consider:

Hollywood ASKS Microsoft to follow CGMS-A flags, even though no laws require enforcing Analog protection flags (in the USA, or Canada)

Then a "critical update" is released crippling all  the MCE boxes that people already own, that used to have no problem recording all the shows they like.

Then you have Canada, where "CGMS-A" is nothing but a foreign acronym.  And now we can barely record anything at all anymore.
There is no FCC protecting us from CGMS-A abuse.  And all the cable companies PVRs still record everything.

TRUE
Shaw, Rogers, and Starchoice are not being nice spewing CGMS-A on all the channels.
There is no law preventing them from doing so either. They have effectively made MCE useless now as a PVR.

BUT
Microsoft themselves provided the opportunity to close themselves out of the PVR market up here.
 There is/was no legal reason whatsover to put such restrictions on recording regular ANALOG television. (in the US either, for that matter)

Tradeoffs were made, on who MS wanted to be friendly to, and MCE users lost :-(


COPY NEVER
should allow you to timeshift content, and disallow you from copying to an external device or media. 
MCE already encrypts it as it is recorded. You couldn't copy it if you wanted to anyway.

I know the functionality was there from the beginning, to disallow "exporting" protected content, and to "expire" protected shows after a few months.
That was the correct way to handle protected content. 

What MCE is doing now is NOT CORRECT.  PVR's can't be "hit and miss" recording only 60% of the shows you ask it to. It's ridiculous.

JESSICA,
please don't be offended, this isn't directed at you. 
Absolutely none of this is your fault.
You did look into it, which I appreciate very much.
And I know you tried to do *something* which gained you a ton of respect from me.

I'll be holding my breath while your divisional director phones Shaw, Rogers, and Starchoice, and asks them to "please stop doing that", lol.

Seriously: the right people here know about this now and from what I've seen on internal emails, care. It doesn't mean I can promise a change, but we care we care we care, and hopefully that will translate into the right thing for customers.

---

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.