they are in canada, the fcc rules do not apply to them.

assuming its a failure of some type, I would point to the tuner card or drivers in this case since its recording.

---

Bryan Socha
Media Center MVP

FWIW...the Microsoft Knowledge Base says to go here and download this utility:

http://www.napster.com/client/drmreset/DRM_reset.exe

I did...it worked.  Don't know why but it solved my problem.

TMG

---

_________________________________________
Vista Ult x86 | ASUS M2N-SLI Del | AMD 64 X2 5200+ | 4gb RAM + 4gb RB | MSI 8600GT | 3x HVR1800 | LC13-S | JVC 56" | PD 8.0 | FFDShow | 180.24 | VGP-XL1B | Harmony880 |80,500,750gb | WHS | FIOS

DRM isn't broken in this case.
It's actually working as expected.

The issue is someone is sending down a copy-protect flag when it probably
shouldn't be sent.

--
Jason Tsang - Microsoft MVP

Read my blog for the latest in Media Center topics
(and other topics that interest me)
http://jtsang.blogspot.com

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Find out about the MS MVP Program -
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wrote in message news:178055@10.240.6.244...
> FWIW...the Microsoft Knowledge Base says to go here and download this
> utility:
>
> http://www.napster.com/client/drmreset/DRM_reset.exe
>
> I did...it worked. Don't know why but it solved my problem.
>
> TMG
>

---

Jason Tsang - Media Center MVP
http://blog.jasontsang.ca

almach1:

it's a regular sattelte tv signal connected over composite cables to my tuner card. I thought those signals don't carry DRM so it must be in the downloaded Guide from microsoft that the permissions are restricted.!!!!

I'm sorry you had this problem today. But we don't get DRM info from the Guide at all; if there's something there, it's in the signal itself.

---

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

accident:

they are in canada, the fcc rules do not apply to them.

assuming its a failure of some type, I would point to the tuner card or drivers in this case since its recording.

Yeah, true, but our product respects CGMS-A regardless of region. Is there a regulatory board in Canada that says how CGMS-A can be used?

---

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

austinite:

The point is that if the cable company's PVR allows for time-shifting, then Vista should allow for time-shifting. The problem the content providers have, I assume, is not time-shifting, but people making recordings and then putting them on BitTorrent, USENET, etc.

That could be eliminiated or reduced by encrypting recordings that come in with CGMS-A, or watermarking them with the user's IP address, etc. That will deter 99% of the users from doing it. The really determined 1% will be using one of the free software programs instead of Vista anyway.

Sure, there are likely other ways to do this. But I'm sure that cable companies are concerned not only with recording and putting copies out on the internet somewhere but also that you watch commercials and therefore don't time-shift.

Anyway, it's information like yours and everyone else's who has chimed in on this thread that helps us make better decisions about how to balance keeping our customers and the industry happy.

---

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

The Canadian counterpart to the FCC is the CRTC and they are WAY behind when it comes to these sorts of issues - it wouldn't surprise me if they have never even acknowledged the existence of CGMS-A.  (For example the CRTC does not require working f/w ports nor does it require cable cos to give out CableCards if you ask for them.  There is also no time period for shutting off analog OTA in Canada)

Disclosure - I am in Scarborough - my PC is running XP MCE2005RU2.  I subscribe to Rogers digital cable and I have a SA3200 cable box that is dedicated to my HTPC.  It is connected to my PC via the S-video input of a Hauppauge PVR-150 MCE edition.  I also have an OTA-HD tuner but that has been irrelevant to the can't record issue.

I have had this same error while trying to record The Wiggles on Treehouse TV which is channel 65 (also mapped to 221).  Occasionally, about 1 out of 10 times, it will fail to record and give me this error.  I have tried installing the KB patch that is supposed to address this issue but that doesn't seem to have helped.  I have also seen this recording restriction on other content - I believe it is other shows on Treehouse. I will look at the recording logs in MCE to try to find the details for the other shows as well.

Should CGMS-A apply for digital cable?

JessZahn:

.....able companies are concerned not only with recording and putting copies out on the internet somewhere but also that you watch commercials and therefore don't time-shift.

If we cant record it while we are at work in the fist place we cant watch the content nor the commercial if we wanted to.  Also if someone is paying for a subscription to a cable service doesn't it give them the right to watch content they pay for?   I hope something does change/

wayner9:

  I also have an OTA-HD tuner but that has been irrelevant to the can't record issue)

That's because CGMS-A is not used for OTA-HD (ATSC). ATSC uses the "Broadcast Flag", and the FCC setup guidelines for the usage of that flag. They can only set "CopyNever" on such things as Pay-per-view. Also, it's possible that your tuner doesn't decode the broadcast flag, since the FCC rule requiring that all tuners decode it was blocked by the courts.

wayner9:

I have had this same error while trying to record The Wiggles on Treehouse TV which is channel 65 (also mapped to 221). 

Should CGMS-A apply for digital cable?

Have you had the problem while recording The Wiggles on channel 65 or on channel 221? Channel 65 is an analog transmission, NTSC, which contains the CGMS-A bits, and your set-top box just sends it out as received out the S-Video port. Channel 221 is sent by your cable provider over QAM to the set-top box. The set-top box then decodes the QAM signal, and sends it out the S-Video port.

So you could see the CGMS-A flags on one channel or on both.

JessZahn:

Sure, there are likely other ways to do this. But I'm sure that cable companies are concerned not only with recording and putting copies out on the internet somewhere but also that you watch commercials and therefore don't time-shift.

You're right that they are concerned about commercial skipping, but I find it disingenious that they would rent out their own DVRs that can do time-shift and commercial skip, but block Vista MCE (and Tivo, from what I read about the Series 3 Tivo) from doing the same. This is no fault of Microsoft, of course, but the broadcasters.

JessZahn:

Anyway, it's information like yours and everyone else's who has chimed in on this thread that helps us make better decisions about how to balance keeping our customers and the industry happy.

I'm glad to hear that you're working on it! I hope that the issue is resolved. (XP) MCE (without rollout 2) is sooooo much better than the cable co's DVR. Hopefully I'll be able to upgrade to Vista MCE. It looks really nice!

Or maybe by then everything will be ATSC and QAM w/CableCard anyway and the CGMS-A issue will be moot.

austinite:

Have you had the problem while recording The Wiggles on channel 65 or on channel 221? Channel 65 is an analog transmission, NTSC, which contains the CGMS-A bits, and your set-top box just sends it out as received out the S-Video port. Channel 221 is sent by your cable provider over QAM to the set-top box. The set-top box then decodes the QAM signal, and sends it out the S-Video port.

So you could see the CGMS-A flags on one channel or on both.

No - I have never had a problem watching the channel.  And channel 65 is NOT an analog transmission as Rogers cable, at least in Toronto, has all channels available in digital and with STBs only shows the digital channel.  If I was watching channel 65 without using the STB then I agree, it would be analog, but not using the STB.  Rogers maps digital channels to multiple "channel numbers" in many instances both for HD and SD channels.  At one time a few years ago, when they first provided the lower (<80) channels in digital they also mapped the analog channel to 800 + the channel number so that you could watch channel 65 in analog on 865.  You could see the difference as you got a wee bit of noise and the analog feed was a second or two ahead of the digital feed. 

JessZahn:

Hey, I have too responded in this thread!

But the way to get bugs investigated and fixed in our product is to report them to Microsoft Support and your OEM. I like to help when I can, but I think everyone knows that this isn't specifically my job, right? I do this for fun. :-)

However, if someone can capture a full stream, I will do everything in my power to get a capture developer to have a look and see if we can tell whether it's noise on the signal or the CGMS-A flag. Honestly, I could believe that either is about as likely.

So if someone can do this, send me a private message and we'll talk about how to get the stream to me.

-Jessica

Hi Jessica.
There are a few other discussions about CGMS-A here as well.

I am on Shaw in Canada, and they are putting "Copy Never"' on a TON of shows, all the movies, even lots of kid's shows my three year old likes to watch.  Even reruns of Reba that my wife likes.

This is not PPV, or VOD.

I know it's CGMS-A "copy never" because I am an electronics junkie, and a professional programmer.  I trapped the signal on line-21 on my oscilloscope.   Then I made a circuit that blanked it out.   And that fixed it, period, no more guessing.  It's not noise.


Further,
There ** ARE ** laws, in the USA, for CGMS
The MOST prohibitive copy protection (that can be applied by the cable company) is:
OTA broadcast - Copy Freely (EMI=00)
PPV / VOD - Copy Never (EMI=11)
Anything Else - Copy Once (EMI=10)

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/47cfr76.1904.htm
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/09nov20051500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2005/octqtr/pdf/47cfr76.1904.pdf

( all the rules are in http://wireless.fcc.gov/rules.html )

This problem appears to be centered to Canada.   None of the above rules apply here.  No rules apply here for CGMS, actually.   So the cable companies, so far Shaw, and recently it appears Star Choice, and Rogers, have decided to abuse it.

My response from Shaw was "ya, we know.   We don't support Microsoft PVRs, complain to them, not us.  If you want to record everything again, buy a Shaw PVR, it has no problems recording any channels"

You know, as much as I hate bugs in our product, I think I hate this more.

Folks from my team are running a test now to see if we can capture the same thing you did.

YUCK!!!

---

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Despite the best efforts of the US, we managed to avoid signing up for this DRM BS as part of the FTA. Thank god.

JessZahn:

You know, as much as I hate bugs in our product, I think I hate this more.

Folks from my team are running a test now to see if we can capture the same thing you did.

YUCK!!!

Serious?  You just became one of my favorite gals ;-)

How do you capture it in Windows?  I can build a graph with VBI Scope easy enough to view Line 21 data, but don't know of any way to capture the VBI pin output to a file.   If you can point me to a directshow filter that does that, I can do some captures for you , if you like.

Here's a still shot with VBI-Scope:
http://members.shaw.ca/randyg/DRM/Line21_VBIscope.JPG

(although this was was more fun:)
http://members.shaw.ca/randyg/DRM/P2100005.JPG