Ok so with all the different ways that are possible besides cable card like firewire, USb (dtv will use this).. why is it no other PVR software is trying to support these. Seems to me that sage, or beyond tv could add firewire support.

I know Sage has a Firewire plug-in, not sure about Beyond off the top of my head.  The issue there is 5C support, which they can't get.

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Chris Lanier
The Green Button Forum Moderator

You are not going to find an HDMI to component adapter that handles HDCP.

WRK

Chris not to sound dumb... But why is MS the only one who could get the 5C support? Is it because of the DRM?

gstone:

Chris not to sound dumb... But why is MS the only one who could get the 5C support? Is it because of the DRM?

The general concenus is that Microsoft is a) the only one who would/could spend the cash to do it b) the only company who realizes that to get this type of support the recorded content must be protected c) the only company that the content protection group would actually work with.

In my mind the only one that matters is b.  How many Sage/Beyond users would accept a solution in which everything they recorded was protected and thus they can't use software extenders, sync to portable devices, transcode, etc?

Microsoft has almost always supported DRM when it adds new possibilites for the user.  The average person just looks at that saying Microsoft is trying to screw them over.  The educated person looks at it and finds that it is the only way to get protected content into the PC in the first place.  This is why CableCARD and DIRECTV are not likely to ship in anything but Media Center.

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Chris Lanier
The Green Button Forum Moderator

Chris - Moderator:

gstone:

Chris not to sound dumb... But why is MS the only one who could get the 5C support? Is it because of the DRM?

The general concenus is that Microsoft is a) the only one who would/could spend the cash to do it b) the only company who realizes that to get this type of support the recorded content must be protected c) the only company that the content protection group would actually work with.

In my mind the only one that matters is b.  How many Sage/Beyond users would accept a solution in which everything they recorded was protected and thus they can't use software extenders, sync to portable devices, transcode, etc?

Microsoft has almost always supported DRM when it adds new possibilites for the user.  The average person just looks at that saying Microsoft is trying to screw them over.  The educated person looks at it and finds that it is the only way to get protected content into the PC in the first place.  This is why CableCARD and DIRECTV are not likely to ship in anything but Media Center.

You should also add that MS does not have 5C support, and has no plans to get it.  5C refers to the 5 companies that created the system, and I bet it would takes years to get all 5 companies on board with such a solution.

I understand now. Protected or un-protected doesn't matter to me. As long as I can record it and play it throughout my house I am happy with that. Portable devieces are nice but not a high priority.

I think companies have the right to want their content protected. I use Napster all of which is licensed and I have absolutly no problem with how I am allowed to play my music. If the same applied to Video that would be perfectly fine.

I agree, lets just get it done MS and D'!!

Chris: "This is why CableCARD and DIRECTV are not likely to ship in anything but Media Center"

Do I smell another anti-trust suit against Microsoft? 

WRK

Not likely.  If there was a suit against anyone, it would be the organizations who make the copy protection systems and thus set the bar for certification.  Microsoft isn't behind any of these things, they just want to bring them to you.  I can't see that violating any Competition laws from Microsoft's end.

Now, are the other organizations doing any anti-competitive practices?  Depends on how you look at it I guess.

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Chris Lanier
The Green Button Forum Moderator

jeonunh:

You should also add that MS does not have 5C support, and has no plans to get it.  5C refers to the 5 companies that created the system, and I bet it would takes years to get all 5 companies on board with such a solution.

Microsoft DOES already have 5C/DTCP support and Microsoft's DRM is already tested and approved for handoff of 5C/DTCP protected content.  In other words, they already have everything in place to take Firewire/5C protected content and store it in a Microsoft DRM'd file on a PC.  To my knowledge, it is the only software based medium approved for an open 5C handoff.  On top of that, Microsoft is already pays the annual fees required to use 5C in their products.

Take a look at the DTCP web site and the 5C/DTCP overview document.

http://www.dtcp.com/data/DTCP_Overview.pdf

Have a look at pages 8 and 9 in the overview document and you'll see that not only is Microsoft's DRM approved, but one of the primary purposes for 5C content protection is to enable premium protected content into a PC.

What is not complete is driver for Media Center that ties this whole thing together, including the ability to control the STB through Firewire (for all we know they might even have this internally too).

One thing for certain is the amount of effort required to support Firewire, complete with 5C content protection, would be absolutely trivial compared to the effort required to support CableCard and DirecTV.  The other certainty is a Firewire/5C driver for Media Center would enable more existing Media Center PCs to access HD content than any other software addition to Media Center.

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STB w/R5000HD USB I/O, Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, Quad Q6600, 4.0 GB RAM, ATI HD 3870 512MB, Ultra XVS 600W PSU, 3x SATA 500GB, 2x SATA 300GB, LG GGC-H20L, PVR-250, Toshiba 51H83 (51" HDTV), Yamaha RX-V2400 Amp, 5x Energy Speakers, SVS Sub, Harmony 880 Remote

HT Slider:

jeonunh:

You should also add that MS does not have 5C support, and has no plans to get it.  5C refers to the 5 companies that created the system, and I bet it would takes years to get all 5 companies on board with such a solution.

Microsoft DOES already have 5C/DTCP support and Microsoft's DRM is already tested and approved for handoff of 5C/DTCP protected content.  In other words, they already have everything in place to take Firewire/5C protected content and store it in a Microsoft DRM'd file on a PC.  To my knowledge, it is the only software based medium approved for an open 5C handoff.  On top of that, Microsoft is already pays the annual fees required to use 5C in their products.

Take a look at the DTCP web site and the 5C/DTCP overview document.

http://www.dtcp.com/data/DTCP_Overview.pdf

Have a look at pages 8 and 9 in the overview document and you'll see that not only is Microsoft's DRM approved, but one of the primary purposes for 5C content protection is to enable premium protected content into a PC.

What is not complete is driver for Media Center that ties this whole thing together, including the ability to control the STB through Firewire (for all we know they might even have this internally too).

One thing for certain is the amount of effort required to support Firewire, complete with 5C content protection, would be absolutely trivial compared to the effort required to support CableCard and DirecTV.  The other certainty is a Firewire/5C driver for Media Center would enable more existing Media Center PCs to access HD content than any other software addition to Media Center.

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that this would require a 5C compliant fireware card that handles the handshake between devices.  I read that such a card was being developed, but the concensus was that the key in the card would likely be revoked right away if it was used illegally.

Sure you can.  The HDfury has full HDCP support: http://www.consoleshop.com/product.php?productid=16848

jeonunh:

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that this would require a 5C compliant fireware card that handles the handshake between devices.  I read that such a card was being developed, but the concensus was that the key in the card would likely be revoked right away if it was used illegally.

According to a buddy of mine who worked on Intel's DTCP-IP, it doesn't need to be a hardware card, but you are correct that the keys would be quickly revoked if compromised.  Hiding the keys is the most difficult part to 5C compliance.  There is also a financial incentive to ensure the keys are very well hidden with any hardware or software solution.

In reality this is essentially the same as the way keys that are used to unlock HD-DVD, Blue-ray, DRM files, etc are handled.  All modern content protection schemes have key revocation capabilities built in.

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STB w/R5000HD USB I/O, Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, Quad Q6600, 4.0 GB RAM, ATI HD 3870 512MB, Ultra XVS 600W PSU, 3x SATA 500GB, 2x SATA 300GB, LG GGC-H20L, PVR-250, Toshiba 51H83 (51" HDTV), Yamaha RX-V2400 Amp, 5x Energy Speakers, SVS Sub, Harmony 880 Remote

mikesm:

Sure you can.  The HDfury has full HDCP support: http://www.consoleshop.com/product.php?productid=16848

One big problem for the HDFury though - their whole argument for why their device complies with HDCP requirements is there is no consumer component video capture device available.  They are basing their compliance on the wording in the spec stating (something like) "it must be very difficult to copy the output of an HDCP compliant device".  HDCP obviously allows TV to display protected content and recording that is easier today with an HD video recorder than capturing component video - but once the Hauppage HD-PVR is on the market, this changes everything.  It will be very easy to copy the output of the HDFury so they will immediately be non-compliant.

At that point, they could easily have their HDCP keys revoked (and I expect it will happen).  I'm not exactly sure how that works with HDCP, but I expect it would render the HDFury non-functional when plugged into an updated device like a newer video card (possibly even driver updates may update the list of revoked keys).

Man, it is insane to think about how much this DRM crap screws up our ability to simply do what we legally should be able to do with the content we purchase!

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STB w/R5000HD USB I/O, Gigabyte GA-P35-DS4, Quad Q6600, 4.0 GB RAM, ATI HD 3870 512MB, Ultra XVS 600W PSU, 3x SATA 500GB, 2x SATA 300GB, LG GGC-H20L, PVR-250, Toshiba 51H83 (51" HDTV), Yamaha RX-V2400 Amp, 5x Energy Speakers, SVS Sub, Harmony 880 Remote