Chris - Moderator:

Microsoft needs to realize CableCARD isn't supported in Canada, and if you are not willing to fix underlaying issues then you are getting millions from the potential market.  CableCARD isn't supported, Microsoft doesn't support ATSC in Canada, and now Microsoft will not fix CGMS-A for a coutry in which it doesn't exist to the broadcast indutry and regulatatory bodies.

What type of TV signal do you suggest these 33 million people use??

wayner9: "But are there not rules from the FCC that govern when CGMS-A can be turned on and off?"

I guess that is my question as well.  There are FCC mandates around the use of the Broadcast Flag, i..e the digital equivalent of CGMS-A, but are there indeed FCC mandates around the use or non-use of CGMS-A for broadcasters?  Or is this simply something that broadcasters and consumer electronic companies got together and did on their own?

WRK

kingwr:

wayner9: "But are there not rules from the FCC that govern when CGMS-A can be turned on and off?"

I guess that is my question as well.  There are FCC mandates around the use of the Broadcast Flag, i..e the digital equivalent of CGMS-A, but are there indeed FCC mandates around the use or non-use of CGMS-A for broadcasters?  Or is this simply something that broadcasters and consumer electronic companies got together and did on their own?

It is pretty simple.  There is a CGMS-A standard available to provide information regarding copy "ability" of content.

In the US, the FCC controls how it is used, where it can be and can't be implemented and which flags are allowed for various types of content.  In order to be compliant, cable and satellite providers abide by these rules (mostly).  If they don't, the FCC can come down on them and make sure they come into compliance.

In Canada, the CRTC doesn't provide or mandate any means to control recording of any content.  All content can legally be recorded for personal use, including premium content.  Most importantly, the CRTC doesn't control, encourage the use of nor encourage the non-use of CGMS-A flags. The CRTC simply states that CGMS-A is "not used in Canada".  Because of this, none of the PVRs, VCR, DVRs, etc. sold in Canada detect and abide by CGMS-A flags at all.  The only PVR that do are ones running Microsoft's Media Center.  This wouldn't be a big problem, except for the fact that many of the cable and satellite provides are for some reason (we don't really know why) including CGMS-A copy never flags in some content.  These flags are totally random and are definitely not related to premium content.  I can for example record all pay per view content fine with Media Center, but I can't record reruns of Pokemon or Spiderman off the Teletoon (for some reason reruns of children's shows are the worst for CGMS-A flags).

Luckily most of the content I personally receive (and want to watch) does not include CGMS-A copy never flags, but still somewhere between 1-10% does (depending on the month, the phase of the moon and how the planets align - or something...).  You might think - not a big deal, so you can't record up to 10 out of every 100 shows that you try to record and "most" of the ones you want to watch do record.  I can tell you first hand that at times this is a big deal.  A very big deal in fact when the season finale of some series we've been following suddenly won't record.  I usually resort to torrent downloads in this situation, but it is ridiculous that this problem exists in the first place when we are talking about a "premium, high end PVR" that is unable to work reliably in Canada because it abides by an uncontrolled, unregulated copy protection flag that even the cable and satellite providers tell us they don't use (apparently the copy never flags are just "random noise in the video stream").

Many of us, including myself have both written to and spoken with the CRTC and our provider (ExpressVu in my case) and we have been told that our PVR should not be looking for CGMS-A flags since they are not controlled or used in Canada (transcripts have been quoted in this thread on previous pages).  The answer has always been that the problem is with Media Center looking for something that doesn't exist here, not the CRTC or ExpressVu's problem.

The result of this whole situation is we consumers have spent $1000's of dollars on high end Media Center PCs and extenders, yet we can't reliably record; rendering our expensive Media Centers totally useless in many individuals opinions.

As far as being able to sue Microsoft, of course we could.  Microsoft sells Media Center both through OEM hardware and through retailers, advertising the PVR capabilities.  No where have I read that Media Center is no longer supposed to work in Canada as advertised and since it doesn't work as advertised, we do have grounds to sue.  Grounds for a lawsuit are pretty simple.  Consumer pays money for advertised functionality, advertised functionality isn't there due to interpreting a flag that PVRs in Canada are not supposed to interpret, manufacturer/Microsoft is at fault, done deal.  I can tell you first hand that I personally have gone to court over things similar to this and I have won every single time.  I can also tell you it is a lot of work and in the long run no-one really wins if you consider how much time was spent proving the case and all of the stress involved.  If we went to a class action lawsuit (instead of small claims), we would most certainly get very little money out of it, but we should ultimately win.

The only reason I would really consider a lawsuit would be to try to get Microsoft to abide by our CRTC rules and that means treating analog video streams as if CGMS-A flags do not exist here.  In reality it would probably be more practical to simply purchase Sage TV or any other PVR solution.  Absolutely every single other PVR solution, hardware or software, ignores these "non-existent" CGMS-A flags in Canada.  Media Center should too, but I can't figure out why Microsoft insists on doing this to us Canadians.

I can only assume that the reason that Microsoft isn't doing the dead simple fix, which is to shut off CGMS-A for systems where country = Canada, is that it would be too easy to make a hack that gets around this.  After all many of us in Canada use a similar hack to enable ATSC reception.

But the points raised above around whether the FCC regulates CGMS-A are interesting.  I just searched for CGMS-A at the FCC website and all I could find is a Powerpoint presentation from 2002.  Are we positive that there are FCC rules governing CGMS-A usage or is it possible that it is just an industry standard?

I also believe that some instances of the flag are set by the content owner and/or the channel rather than the cable or sat company.  There is a childrens show on TreehouseTV where one episode always fails to record due to CGMS-A.  I have been able to record dozens of other episodes of this show but this one episode has failed at least ten times.  That would tell me that the CGMS-A flag is set on the  original source tape/file - I can't believe that someone at Rogers is standing by and flipping the switch for only this one episode of a childrens show.

TimSchreck-MS:

I want to point out again that Media Center is not setting the CGMS-A flags in the broadcasts.  Media Center does respect the CGMS-A standard, including the CGMS-A flags that content providers set.  It is not appropriate for Media Center to make a judgment on whether the flag is appropriately set or not. 

The solution we are providing for Vista is intended to provide relief on the scenario where we know premium content is not in play - configurations where there is no set top box.  I am also pursuing fix for XP MCE but the plans for this are not as far along as the Vista plans.

We are locked on our schedule for the next Media Center Cumulative Update and will proceed with plans on including the current solution in that update - again provided there are no unforeseen hurdles that delay the release.  I will continue to keep track of this situation and continue to explore options for both Vista and XP MCE that meet customer, business and technical considerations.

- Tim

 

wayner9:

I can only assume that the reason that Microsoft isn't doing the dead simple fix, which is to shut off CGMS-A for systems where country = Canada, is that it would be too easy to make a hack that gets around this.  After all many of us in Canada use a similar hack to enable ATSC reception.

ATSC reception isn't blocked out in Canada though, it is simply unsupported.  Internet TV on the other hand is an example of something Microsoft has blocked out for Canada.  I don't know of any way to get Internet TV working within Media Center in Canada and I assume it is blocked out based on IP routing.  I've tried changing my location to the US and that definitely doesn't work.

Microsoft could easily do something similar as a location test for turning on/off CGMS-A.  They could easily default to turning CGMS-A detection on and only after ensuring the PC is located in Canada using both EPG data and IP location. turn CMGS-A detection off.  It would be quite difficult to get around this for those living in the US, but it would take several hours of coding on Microsoft's part.  After this though, Microsoft would once again be able to offer reliable Media Center functionality within Canada (hopefully selling more licenses of Vista and definitely having much happier Canadian customers).

wayner9:

But the points raised above around whether the FCC regulates CGMS-A are interesting.  I just searched for CGMS-A at the FCC website and all I could find is a Powerpoint presentation from 2002.  Are we positive that there are FCC rules governing CGMS-A usage or is it possible that it is just an industry standard?

I can't remember exactly where, but on the FCC web site I did find information defining how CGMS-A is to be used within the US.  Links to it have been included in this thread (I think).  There are also phone numbers that US residents can call if CGMS-A flags are being abused.  The legality of whether PVRs need to abide by the CGMS-A flag in the US is unclear, but in Canada it is very clear that PVRs are not supposed to abide by the CGMS-A flags (according to the CRTC at least).

wayner9:

I also believe that some instances of the flag are set by the content owner and/or the channel rather than the cable or sat company.  There is a childrens show on TreehouseTV where one episode always fails to record due to CGMS-A.  I have been able to record dozens of other episodes of this show but this one episode has failed at least ten times.  That would tell me that the CGMS-A flag is set on the  original source tape/file - I can't believe that someone at Rogers is standing by and flipping the switch for only this one episode of a childrens show.

According to the people I've managed to escalate my inquiries at ExpressVu to, they don't add or remove CGMS-A flags at all.  All they do is pass the content through as they receive it, complete with CGMS-A, V-CHIP, CC, etc.  It sounds like they have some control over if they pass this stuff through or not, but it sounded like they couldn't turn off CGMS-A on its own and since the CRTC does mandate V-CHIP ratings, ExpressVu can't simply turn it off (easily at least).  The reality is they don't really care that Media Center won't record due to this whole issue.  ExpressVu was constantly pushing me to dump Media Center and pick up one of their HD-PVRs instead.

Tikker:

TimSchreck-MS:

I want to point out again that Media Center is not setting the CGMS-A flags in the broadcasts.  Media Center does respect the CGMS-A standard, including the CGMS-A flags that content providers set.  It is not appropriate for Media Center to make a judgment on whether the flag is appropriately set or not.

Hey Matt, look

Turns out MS is incapable of understanding that CGMS-A doesn't apply in Canada

HT Slider:

According to the people I've managed to escalate my inquiries at ExpressVu to, they don't add or remove CGMS-A flags at all.  All they do is pass the content through as they receive it, complete with CGMS-A, V-CHIP, CC, etc.  It sounds like they have some control over if they pass this stuff through or not, but it sounded like they couldn't turn off CGMS-A on its own and since the CRTC does mandate V-CHIP ratings, ExpressVu can't simply turn it off (easily at least).  The reality is they don't really care that Media Center won't record due to this whole issue.  ExpressVu was constantly pushing me to dump Media Center and pick up one of their HD-PVRs instead.

TimSchreck-MS:

I want to point out again that Media Center is not setting the CGMS-A flags in the broadcasts.  Media Center does respect the CGMS-A standard, including the CGMS-A flags that content providers set.  It is not appropriate for Media Center to make a judgment on whether the flag is appropriately set or not. 

The solution we are providing for Vista is intended to provide relief on the scenario where we know premium content is not in play - configurations where there is no set top box.  I am also pursuing fix for XP MCE but the plans for this are not as far along as the Vista plans.

We are locked on our schedule for the next Media Center Cumulative Update and will proceed with plans on including the current solution in that update - again provided there are no unforeseen hurdles that delay the release.  I will continue to keep track of this situation and continue to explore options for both Vista and XP MCE that meet customer, business and technical considerations.

- Tim

Tim, please read through the posts.  We know Media Center is not setting any flags and we also understand and accept that there are good reasons for Media Center to respect CGMS-A flags when used in the US.

Canada is a different country with different rules and regulations.  According to our controlling body, the CRTC, no PVR in Canada should be respecting CGMS-A flags.  These flags are not regulated in any way here and there are no legal nor industry reasons to go against the grain and try to detect and respect these "unused" flags within Canada.

By detecting and respecting CGMS-A flags in Canada, all you are doing is making Media Center unreliable and non-functional - ultimately producing many unhappy customers and hurting sales of your product.

I suggest that you get in touch with the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) at 819-997-0313 and get some 2-way communication going between Microsoft and the CRTC with regards to this issue.  The CRTC's web site can be accessed at:

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/welcome.htm

and the overall contacts page is found at:

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/contactus.htm

The only solution to make Media Center properly function within Canada is for Media Center to stop attempting to interpret CGMS-A flags within Canada.

Edit:  While talking to the CRTC, please also discuss V-CHIP requirements.  All PVRs sold within Canada are required to respect embedded V-CHIP ratings and to provide parental controls.  While parental controls do work with with MCE2005, with Vista, Media Center stopped respecting V-CHIP ratings and this means that Media Center is non-compliant. 

To function properly and be compliant with our regulations, Media Center needs to respect V-CHIP ratings and provide parental controls, while at the same time not attempt to interpret CGMS-A flags.

Brilliant HT_Slider!

The only torture in live worse than Vogon poetry is trying to deal with the CRTC.

Interesting read.  As a common Canada user (I sold my igloo last year) I find it interesting that Internet TV is blocked by Microsoft yet the CGMS-A flag is not ignored.  Why do I have the Internet TV icon, but it doesn't work!

This just appears to be blatant ignorance (and other words I can not print).  I may not be a real techie, but I am a CIO, and to have MS not fix this appears to be playing into the hands of industry rather than the law of the country it licences it products in.  When I buy software, it is customized for my country.  If MS or industry has a problem with Canadian law, it should take it to the courts.  In the meantime, MS should follow local laws.  This isn't one world yet! 

Chris - Moderator:

Internet TV is a bit different.  The deal here is that Microsoft signs contracts with the content owners and they restict it to US only.

While Internet TV vs Recorded TV is different, the point I was trying to make is Microsoft already has restrictions taking away functionality based on us living in Canada (regardless of the reason), yet they don't seem to be willing to make Recorded TV work properly in Canada by tweaking it appropriately for Canada.

Here is how Media Center should be in order to be compliant with local laws, regulations and contractual obligations:

                                  US         Canada

Respect CGMS-A           Yes            No*

Respect V-CHIP ratings   Yes           Yes*

Internet TV                  Yes            No

Items with a * are currently exactly the opposite of what they should be in order to be compliant with regulations and the needs of Canadians.

The crazy thing is Microsoft already has both V-CHIP ratings and Internet TV specifically disabled for Canada, yet they are unwilling to bring CGMS-A compliance in line with Canadian requirements.  On top of that and just as ridiculous, we do have regulations that require PVRs sold in Canada to respect V-CHIP ratings and provide parental controls, yet Microsoft specifically ignores this requirement and specifically disables parental controls just for Canada.

Tim, could you explain to us why there is so much resistance to making current versions of Media Center work properly for us Canadians?  When I first started using MCE2005 it was fully compliant with Canadian regulations and requirements.  Here we are now 3 years later and we no longer have any parental controls and worse than that Media Center is now looking for copy protection flags that are not supposed to exist here and this causes recordings to regularly fail.

Could you please confirm that Microsoft is no longer interested in the Canadian market and that we should look elsewhere for our PVR needs.  If Microsoft does intend to keep selling Media Center to the Canadian market then please make it work properly for the Canadian market.  If you want to sell Vista Home Premium here, Media Center needs to be brought into compliance with our regulations and requirements.