wayner9: "Would this not be illegal under the DMCA...?"

Let me first say that this post should in no way be construed as the author providing a legal opinion or as an offer for legal representation.

That being said, I would say no, first because it would be done in Canada, which may or may not be a signatory to the WIPO provisions that spawned the DMCA here in the U.S.  Second, I think it could be effectively argued that the CGMS-A flag, in this case, is not a measure that is effectively controlling access to a copyrighted work, because the flag is being inserted into the video stream as noise and not "in the ordinary course of operation" and under "the authority of the copyright owner" in order to protect a copyrighted work.  If the solution was acutally used to record a work specifically marked for no copy by the copyright holder, then you may have issue under the DMCA.

Further, determining how to achieve this, and making the knowledge available to others would not violate the DMCA, so long as the developer did not actually provide or traffic in the instrumentalities for circumventing the CGMS-A flag, e.g. making the modified DLL available for download. 

Of course, this is just my (non-legal) opinion.

WRK

Hi everyone.  I want to give a quick update on this issue and where we are with our plans on providing some relief for this issue.

I also want to preface that I cannot provide any promises at this juncture.  While we continue to work towards a near-term solution, there are still hurdles that can influence any potential fix or release plans.

As many on this thread are aware, CGMS-A is an analog content protection technology used by the broadcast industry.  As with most things analog, there is little information we can easily glean from the broadcast stream in order to provide a safety net or confirmation should the CGMS-A flag be set incorrectly.  I also want to again note that Media Center is simply respecting the CGMS-A flag in the broadcast.  We don’t believe broadcasters are intentionally setting any flags incorrectly but this flag may be inadvertently set through customary practices such as broadcasting from a DVD playback.  OK – so enough with the disclaimers J

For Vista, we have identified a solution that will help some but not all of the reports of this issue.  Essentially, if a set top box is not being used, the fix will better handle situations in which the CopyNever flag has been incorrectly set for non-premium analog content.  However, if a set top box is being used, there is potential that premium content is involved and we must respect the CGMS-A flags.  We believe this is an appropriate approach to provide some relief for this issue yet still be able to respect the CGMS-A flag when appropriate.  We are currently testing this change and it is slated to be included in the next Media Center Cumulative Update.  It is still too early in the process for me to comment on the timing of this release. 

We are also investigating a solution for XP MCE.  There are some underlying differences between XP MCE and Vista that may prevent the same approach we’re taking with Vista to work on XP MCE.  However, we continue to investigate with the goal of providing some relief for XP MCE.  As I noted on my previous thread, the XP MCE plans are not as far along as the plan for Vista.  I’ll continue to provide updates as we make progress.

-          Tim

 

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Tim Schreck
Media Center SE

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Seems to me there is a simple solution, at least for the issues we've seen this past week or so with USA Network, where it stops recording when it encounters the flag in a commercial.

The problem is MCE doesn't resume recording if that flag gets cleared after a minute or two. Instead of stopping the recording when that flag is encountered, simply blank the audio and video but keep recording. Then, if the CGMS-A flag gets dropped, you unblank the audio and video and we would only have missed that one commercial this past week.

This is how MCE 2005 used to work. Back in June 2007, it happened during a commercial for the final Stargate SG-1 episode. The audio muted, the screen went black and displayed a message that recording of the content was prohibited. Sixty seconds later, the CGMS-A flag was dropped, and picture and audio were turned back on.

That obviously won't help if the flag is set for the entire broadcast, say if broadcasting from a DVD, but would have totally eliminated the issues I had this past week. And this should be something easy to implement, as it used to work that way.

Jerry

TimSchreck-MS:

Essentially, if a set top box is not being used, the fix will better handle situations in which the CopyNever flag has been incorrectly set for non-premium analog content.  However, if a set top box is being used, there is potential that premium content is involved and we must respect the CGMS-A flags.  We believe this is an appropriate approach to provide some relief for this issue yet still be able to respect the CGMS-A flag when appropriate. 

Gee, thanks for the slim chance of relief Tim.  Wow, just think - the remote possibility of consistently recording non-premium analog content in Canada (as long as you don't use an STB), with not a hope in hell of recording any premium content like we're entitled to.  Nice - keep up the good work Tim.

TimSchreck-MS:

Hi everyone.  I want to give a quick update on this issue and where we are with our plans on providing some relief for this issue.

I also want to preface that I cannot provide any promises at this juncture.  While we continue to work towards a near-term solution, there are still hurdles that can influence any potential fix or release plans.

As many on this thread are aware, CGMS-A is an analog content protection technology used by the broadcast industry.  As with most things analog, there is little information we can easily glean from the broadcast stream in order to provide a safety net or confirmation should the CGMS-A flag be set incorrectly.  I also want to again note that Media Center is simply respecting the CGMS-A flag in the broadcast.  We don’t believe broadcasters are intentionally setting any flags incorrectly but this flag may be inadvertently set through customary practices such as broadcasting from a DVD playback.  OK – so enough with the disclaimers J

For Vista, we have identified a solution that will help some but not all of the reports of this issue.  Essentially, if a set top box is not being used, the fix will better handle situations in which the CopyNever flag has been incorrectly set for non-premium analog content.  However, if a set top box is being used, there is potential that premium content is involved and we must respect the CGMS-A flags.  We believe this is an appropriate approach to provide some relief for this issue yet still be able to respect the CGMS-A flag when appropriate.  We are currently testing this change and it is slated to be included in the next Media Center Cumulative Update.  It is still too early in the process for me to comment on the timing of this release. 

We are also investigating a solution for XP MCE.  There are some underlying differences between XP MCE and Vista that may prevent the same approach we’re taking with Vista to work on XP MCE.  However, we continue to investigate with the goal of providing some relief for XP MCE.  As I noted on my previous thread, the XP MCE plans are not as far along as the plan for Vista.  I’ll continue to provide updates as we make progress.

-          Tim

 

what part of CGMS-A does not exist in Canada has got you confused?

it is NEVER appropriate in Canada to respect this particular flag

TimSchreck-MS:

...if a set top box is not being used...

It seems to me that the vast majority of the issues reported until a couple of weeks ago had nothing to do with non-stb setups. 

TimSchreck-MS:

...However, if a set top box is being used, there is potential that premium content is involved and we must respect the CGMS-A flags...

I beg to differ.  As shown by the many who have done the research and spoken to the appropriate authorities, "we must respect the flags" is simply irrelevant in Canada.  Here, whoever it is who is setting the flags obviously has a vested interest in their own PVR product, and have found an easy way to "attack" Microsoft's product via MS's end-users.  On their own PVR products, there are no persons of authority who feel they "must respect the flags"...

TimSchreck-MS:

  We believe this is an appropriate approach to provide some relief for this issue yet still be able to respect the CGMS-A flag when appropriate...

Maybe for some, but for myself and my family, this approach provides no relief yet still respects "garbage".

Thanks, but your efforts in this area are incomplete.

g.

TimSchreck-MS:

For Vista, we have identified a solution that will help some but not all of the reports of this issue.  Essentially, if a set top box is not being used, the fix will better handle situations in which the CopyNever flag has been incorrectly set for non-premium analog content.  However, if a set top box is being used, there is potential that premium content is involved and we must respect the CGMS-A flags.  We believe this is an appropriate approach to provide some relief for this issue yet still be able to respect the CGMS-A flag when appropriate.  We are currently testing this change and it is slated to be included in the next Media Center Cumulative Update.  It is still too early in the process for me to comment on the timing of this release. 

I am so glad I never upgraded any of my computers to Vista.  I was planning on upgrading my media center to Vista when this issue was resolved, but it looks like you guys at Microsoft haven't got a clue.  It takes over a year to get a major issue resolved?!  And it's STILL too "early in the process"? WTF!?  What were you guys doing all this time we were complaining and ranting?

It is such a shame too, because Windows Media Center does have a beautiful interface.  I feel so disappointed, I was looking forward to Vista and this issue being fixed.  Vista MCE was the only thing that was motivating me to upgrade my OS.

Tikker:

what part of CGMS-A does not exist in Canada has got you confused?

I feel for you guys who are experiencing this problem.  I've ran across this problem here and there and it's a big headache.  If it were as widespread a problem as you're having it I'd be more than a little upset.

But this brand of deliberately obtuse, personal attacks isn't doing you any favors.  They've said they're unable to implement a region-specific solution "for business reasons".  We don't know what those are, but consider two alternatives:

1) Tim and every other MS representative who has spoken on the issue do not possess the mental capacity to understand the irrelevance of CGMS-A to Canadian recipients. -or-
2) As Shiba4320 points out, there are likely contractual obligations that prevent them from making regional exceptions.

Which is more likely and which is just a petty way to attack the messenger?

Now that's not to excuse MS.  As kingwr points out, even if that's the case they got themselves into that mess.  But at least complaining along those lines seems like a much more adult way of engaging MS on the issue than implying that they're personally stupid.

Just my two cents.

Matt, people are angry because it's been over a year now that a "fix" has been in the works.  Some of the comments aren't very nice... but then again having your PVR *malfuntion* and not record your favorite show once, twice, several times a day isn't very nice either.   It's not just the person posting here who is upset, it's also their wife.   Or their children.  Nothing like a crying three year old because "Dora the Explorer" failed to record.   Or a b*tchy wife because "Americal Idol"  joined the CGMS-A club last week.    And now, to boot, after waiting a year for it, the "FIX" is crap...
So you can't blame them, really.

My thoughts on this "fix".   

If you have satellite TV, you are screwed.  

If you already invested in multiple cable boxes to support the PVR, you're screwed.

It's not 1993 anymore.  TV comes on digital stations, more and more every year, and you NEED that dang box to receive it.

Actually, here's my personal situation...
* I bought 2 more cable boxes at $200 / pop specifically for the upstairs PVR, and 1 more for the downstairs one.
* Pretty much only the locals are on basic cable, with all the U.S.networks and "superstations" are on DIGITAL (cable box) channels. (IE everything worth recording except hockey games)
* I have XP MCE
This fix makes me screwed three times over.

In reality, I'm actually not - since I "fixed" this crap a year ago on my boxes.... I just follow this thread because the whole situation sickens me...

OK, MCE2005 users, now we're on our own... It's official now, either no fix is coming, and if it ever does, it will be crap just like the VISTA fix.

I've meant to do this at one point but just never got around to it.... it shouldn't be that hard to get rid of the "copy never" stuff.   And I suggest we work towards this goal - since it's painfully obvious that M.S. for whatever reasons they have - will NOT be fixing it.

I'm 99% sure that MCE2005 didn't have the problem until RU2...  so all that needs to be done is to find which updates are in RU2,  and load them separately until the one that changes the DRM is found, then NEVER run that update.   (or the RU2 one, obviously)  That should allow the gazillion other updates to still work up to date (like DST updates etc).  And probably NOT allow newer media players updates.... but that's no loss, the last two versions just added more DRM anyway, no benefit for MCE.

What did RU2 add, anyway??   I don't remember anything in particular coming out of it.... was there something in there really useful? 

That's my thoughts.   Does anybody have a fresh box and a weekend to burn?  You could be a hero by monday ;-)  

RandyG:

Matt, people are angry because it's been over a year now that a "fix" has been in the works.  Some of the comments aren't very nice... but then again having your PVR *malfuntion* and not record your favorite show once, twice, several times a day isn't very nice either.   It's not just the person posting here who is upset, it's also their wife.   Or their children.  Nothing like a crying three year old because "Dora the Explorer" failed to record.   Or a b*tchy wife because "Americal Idol"  joined the CGMS-A club last week.    And now, to boot, after waiting a year for it, the "FIX" is crap...
So you can't blame them, really.

No, I get why people are upset.  I think the proposed solution we just heard is going to be the final straw for many.  I, too, had been assuming that they were working on a comprehensive fix for this.

If people need to vent, vent.  If they want to point the finger at MS for making horrible decisions for the Canadian market, that's also fair game.  But when you rail on the assertion that someone doesn't get something that they clearly know, you start sounding a little absurd after a while. 

In all honesty I never had a problem like this until today, even though I read this thread many many months ago. I'm a shaw cable customer in medicine hat, alberta, and the issue actually never cropped up. So I know the fix is in the works, and I know it takes time, so I'm grateful at least its in the woks, regardless o how long it is actually taking... for me its minor inconvienience, for others major, but either way, thanks...

As a temporary solution while I wait, I'll just dust off the old vcr and set that to record whatever i want that shaw "accidently" sets the CGMS-A flag for and save you guys the greif everyone else seems to give you...

What I would like to suggest is someone making a new thread and stickying a list of shows or channels that dont record so at least we can all keep track, rather than sorting through this thread for "relevant NON-RANT content"

Wow, that is so very disappointng.  I shouldn't be shocked that MS would screw over it's customers like this, but I am. 

So just so I understand, Microsoft is choosing to do basically nothing for legitimate MCE users w/ STB's in Canada?

I can't beleive I am saying this but as a long time MCE user and proponent, it's time to investigate alternatives.  The sage interface blows, but at least it works.

 

 

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"There are only 10 types of people in the
world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't"

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TimSchreck-MS:

Hi everyone.  I want to give a quick update on this issue and where we are with our plans on providing some relief for this issue...

...I’ll continue to provide updates as we make progress.

-          Tim

Tim, 

I have to say that I am very disappointed to read your post.  Providing a partial fix for only systems running Vista that do not use set top boxes does absolutely nothing for myself, my wife, my children and of course an absolutely enormous number other Canadians.  Many Canadians, including my family, use STBs and with everything going digital, all of us will be using STBs in the near future.  There are simply no other options for bringing content into Media Center in Canada and this renders your "fix" of little value.  The planned fix seems to be more focused on the occasional CGMS-A issue seen in the USA, not the much more significant issue we are seeing here in Canada and this isn't reasonable.

Microsoft is placing, in my opinion, an unreasonable amount of importance on maintaining absolute copy control on CGMS-A protected content; especially considering almost every other device/piece of software simply ignores the flag - even in the US.  There are so many ways to easily record CGMS-A protected content, with or without Media Center, that not allowing the fix to work with STBs in Canada is absolutely absurd.  As to one example, Randy (posting above), has resorted to in-line CGMS-A strippers - just to make Media Center work properly.  Most Canadians on the other hand have simply given up on Media Center and moved on to other software/hardware that ignores the flag.  The word is out and Media Center is not going to sell in significant numbers here without the ability to reliably record.

For us Canadians, there are many simple fixes that could be implemented that would work for a lot more of us than the fix you "might be releasing":

• How about simply pausing recording while CGMS-A copy never flags are set and continuing once the flag turns off again (and stopping recording all together after about 15 minutes)?  Every single time I've examined the timing of CGMS-A flags, they have all occurred during or between commercials.
• How about making use of our EPG settings and/or IP address location to ensure we are in Canada and then ignoring CGMS-A flags as appropriate?  At least 99% of us have our computers on the Internet so you could easily confirm where we are located (you already do this for Internet TV and lock us out of that based on us living in Canada).
• How about detecting when CGMS-A copy never flags get set, and not considering it "copy never" unless set for the majority of the recording?  Even ensuring there is simply more than a 1 minute continuous CGMS-A copy never flag before stopping would probably resolve a huge percentage of the problems.  A truly protected show will have CGMS-A copy never throughout the entire show, not just a short "blip" here and there.
• How about a combination of the above?
• How about a combination of the above combined with locking down potentially CGMS-A copy never content so it can't easily be distributed, but can still be watched locally?

Considering how easy it is to record CGMS-A protected content, the right level of effort by you to protect protected content needs to allow Media Center to work properly for each and every Canadian.  No-one is going to give Microsoft a hard time if you put in a reasonable effort into CGMS-A protection, yet you still ensure your product works in Canada.

If lawsuits are the concern, I can assure you that putting appropriate levels of effort into protecting protected content while making certain your product works properly in Canada is the best option for Microsoft.  There are many Canadians who have spent thousands of dollars on Media Center PCs that are in a position to sue because their Media Center PCs don't work properly.

Please do the right thing.  Don't throw away any more customers and tarnish the reputation of Media Center further because your product won't ever work properly in Canada.  Think about the bottom line and how satisfied customers are exactly what it takes to maximize the bottom line.

Please reconsider the decision and do keep us updated as you "make progress".

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Matt Olsen:

1) Tim and every other MS representative who has spoken on the issue do not possess the mental capacity to understand the irrelevance of CGMS-A to Canadian recipients. -or-
2) As Shiba4320 points out, there are likely contractual obligations that prevent them from making regional exceptions.

Which is more likely and which is just a petty way to attack the messenger?

the answer has to be #1

if it's #2, what possible reason could they have to enforce a flag in a region, where the flag technically doesn't exist?  You can't even say it's collusion with the cableco's since this hurts MS's product

there can be no reason other than they just don't get it, or they just don't care