RandyG:

Well, I suppose if the answer is still " the correct people have been notified "  but no action at all has been taken yet, then I will have to agree with you.   I am really hoping that's not the case though.  

You wouldn't think Microsoft would intentionally ignore an entire country having a severe common issue... past patches/hotfixes (several in recent memory for Australia and their digital problems, and time zone issues) suggest that they do care about customers other than in their USA primary market.

Perhaps we are just barking up the wrong tree... maybe Jessica can point us to the correct tree.

JessZahn:

This is largely about policy decisions. And these policy decisions are, I believe, in the hands of my VP (Joe Belfiore) and his management. So, here's what I am doing today. I'm sending mail directly to Joe with a link to this thread and a summary of the issues we've seen. I obviously can't promise he'll even read it, nor can I promise any action - but you can believe that you'll have been heard.

Remember, though, there are many sides to every story; this issue, horribly frustrating as I know it is for you and for those of us here (Media Center employees!), isn't as black and white as you might think. Can't go deeper than that, but you can speculate on what might be in the shades of gray.

Ahh, geez.  That's just "the correct people have been notified" again after all.

Back in March, "Seriously: the right people here know about this now and from what I've seen on internal emails, care" , remember?  So I have to assume this just isn't new news for  J.B.

sigh.

Well, I hadn't emailed Joe directly until Tuesday - and when I did, someone that I cc'ed confirmed that the issue is actively being worked on, which I didn't know.

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This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

    :-)  

Ok Jessica, any thoughts on this one...

I have been using a video stabilizer between my STB and my MCE box to clean out the anoying and inappropriate CGMS-A signals that were apparently causing MCE to abandon recording.

Well after just a little more than two weeks of enjoying the ability to record again I see that the MCE threw the same old can not record message up this morning when trying to record:

Shaw cable 63, (MC4)
Show: Regenisis - 11:00am - 11:45am July 5th/07

So... should I take this to mean that then new video stabilizer I got is a little flaky or are there other things that are causing MCE 2005 to throw this same message besides the CGMS-A signal?

I haven't been paying attention to know what tuners your having, but I've had a variety of tuners that that message was the first sign the mce machine needed a reboot..   I used to do a ton of changes so it was rare for me to make it 2 weeks without a reason to reboot..  

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Bryan Socha
Media Center MVP

MrSheep:

Ok Jessica, any thoughts on this one...

I have been using a video stabilizer between my STB and my MCE box to clean out the anoying and inappropriate CGMS-A signals that were apparently causing MCE to abandon recording.

Well after just a little more than two weeks of enjoying the ability to record again I see that the MCE threw the same old can not record message up this morning when trying to record:

Shaw cable 63, (MC4)
Show: Regenisis - 11:00am - 11:45am July 5th/07

So... should I take this to mean that then new video stabilizer I got is a little flaky or are there other things that are causing MCE 2005 to throw this same message besides the CGMS-A signal?

Any recollection of what else was going on at the time?   I had it happen once when I was recording a show (or likely two) while also doing FF  full speed on a DVD (this always pegs the machine for some reason),  and I remember the CPU was really getting swamped because it was a bit jerky for the moments leading up to when it got a recording restricted message and the recording stopped.
I happen to know there wasn't any CGMS-A getting to MCE when it stopped, it's completely impossible on that particular machine.

Was just once though, never again... so maybe was just a fluke... hopefully same for you :-)

RandyG:

Any recollection of what else was going on at the time?   I had it happen once when I was recording a show (or likely two) while also doing FF  full speed on a DVD (this always pegs the machine for some reason),  and I remember the CPU was really getting swamped because it was a bit jerky for the moments leading up to when it got a recording restricted message and the recording stopped.
I happen to know there wasn't any CGMS-A getting to MCE when it stopped, it's completely impossible on that particular machine.

Was just once though, never again... so maybe was just a fluke... hopefully same for you :-)

Yes I hope it was a fluke too.

However, at the time (note: 11:00 am) I was working so the machine didn't likely have much else to do besides try and record that show.  That machine has only a single tuner in it as well... so it shouldn't have been pegged or over loaded at the time.

 

So...I don't know. Could have been a fluke...but also, if you have something between the STB and Media Center, we would really have no idea what's actually going on there.

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This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

JessZahn:

So...I don't know. Could have been a fluke...but also, if you have something between the STB and Media Center, we would really have no idea what's actually going on there.

The "something" is a: http://www.xdimax.com/grex/grex.html

and the reason that it is there in the first place is only to deal with the fact that MCE was not recording anything on a number of channels since Nov of last year, until I put this "something" inbetween the STB and the Media Center. I realize it is not MS hardware, but it is there in the first place because of the illogical behaviour of MS software.

Anyway, for the last two weeks the device seems to have reliably done its job, and it seems to continue to work, albeit there has been this one unexplained hic-up.

The point of my question to you and your team was:
- if the filter "is" working correctly and filtering out all CGMS-A flags from the stream
Is there anything else in the specific way that the MCE team has designed the "will not record" behaviour that would cause this same "due to broadcaster" error msg to come up (in the absense of any CGMS-A flags in the stream)? Or, are you reasonably confident that the logic that triggers this message is only tied to the detection of a CGMS-A flag in the stream?

I realize that you are not personally responsible for this particular behaviour and the problem that it is causing so many MCE users across Canada and other places, and I very much admire and appreciate how you personally have stepped up to interact with users on this and other issues, however I think it is pretty clear now that the behaviour and these messages are due to the way MCE is coded and designed to handle various situations.  I really think it is wrong to infer that these problems are caused by "something" else or someone else. I certainly am not ruling out that  this device may have let one slide by.  I appreciate that there are other parties that play a role in this, but it is coming across to me (and I am betting many others as well from the tone on this thread) that Microsoft is in denial about this issue and their role in causing this unpleasant behaviour.

 

It is very unfortunate that I did not find this forum, and especially this post, prior to me ordering all the parts for my new HTPC.  I was very excited about getting rid of the Tivo.  Also exciting was the customizing options could/do exist with Vista MCE.  I will probably not purchase Windows Vista for the PC and instead go with the Linux (possibly Myth) for my system.  At least my system is WAY over powered for Linux now since I built it to Vista specs.  :)

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NMEdia HTPC 200 w/ Asus M2A-VM & Athlon 4200 X2 (AM2)
Video: XFX 7600GS w/HDMI Storage: Dual 500 GB SATA 2 HDs Tuner: AverTV Combo PCIe

MrSheep:

The point of my question to you and your team was:
- if the filter "is" working correctly and filtering out all CGMS-A flags from the stream
Is there anything else in the specific way that the MCE team has designed the "will not record" behaviour that would cause this same "due to broadcaster" error msg to come up (in the absense of any CGMS-A flags in the stream)? Or, are you reasonably confident that the logic that triggers this message is only tied to the detection of a CGMS-A flag in the stream?

We look for the flags, and we look for more than one of them within a certain period of time to ensure it's not a quirk in the stream. There's no other logic that triggers this message.

MrSheep:

 I really think it is wrong to infer that these problems are caused by "something" else or someone else. I certainly am not ruling out that  this device may have let one slide by.  I appreciate that there are other parties that play a role in this, but it is coming across to me (and I am betting many others as well from the tone on this thread) that Microsoft is in denial about this issue and their role in causing this unpleasant behaviour.

You put some piece of software that we don't know anything about and have never tested with our product. I think it's very fair to say we have no idea what that software does and how it does it and therefore we wouldn't support it. I understand this frustration - I remember when my cable company didn't support home networks and they wouldn't help me troubleshoot issues until I plugged my cable modem directly into a PC. It's the same thing, I can't be sure of what that software is or isn't doing, so I can't really tell you what the problem is.

Further, I think it's really unfair and wrong to say Microsoft is in denial about this issue. I told you a couple of days ago stuff is happening; I can't tell you anything else, but it's true. Nobody is denying that you're getting failed recordings; it's even happening to some of us here on the team. And we know exactly why, technically, it's happening, and why we made the policy decisions that we did. We're taking another look at that now, though, and I'm hopeful that good-for-the-end-user changes will come about as a result.

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This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

JessZahn:

MrSheep:

The point of my question to you and your team was:
- if the filter "is" working correctly and filtering out all CGMS-A flags from the stream
Is there anything else in the specific way that the MCE team has designed the "will not record" behaviour that would cause this same "due to broadcaster" error msg to come up (in the absense of any CGMS-A flags in the stream)? Or, are you reasonably confident that the logic that triggers this message is only tied to the detection of a CGMS-A flag in the stream?

We look for the flags, and we look for more than one of them within a certain period of time to ensure it's not a quirk in the stream. There's no other logic that triggers this message.

MrSheep:

 I really think it is wrong to infer that these problems are caused by "something" else or someone else. I certainly am not ruling out that  this device may have let one slide by.  I appreciate that there are other parties that play a role in this, but it is coming across to me (and I am betting many others as well from the tone on this thread) that Microsoft is in denial about this issue and their role in causing this unpleasant behaviour.

You put some piece of software that we don't know anything about and have never tested with our product. I think it's very fair to say we have no idea what that software does and how it does it and therefore we wouldn't support it. I understand this frustration - I remember when my cable company didn't support home networks and they wouldn't help me troubleshoot issues until I plugged my cable modem directly into a PC. It's the same thing, I can't be sure of what that software is or isn't doing, so I can't really tell you what the problem is.

Further, I think it's really unfair and wrong to say Microsoft is in denial about this issue. I told you a couple of days ago stuff is happening; I can't tell you anything else, but it's true. Nobody is denying that you're getting failed recordings; it's even happening to some of us here on the team. And we know exactly why, technically, it's happening, and why we made the policy decisions that we did. We're taking another look at that now, though, and I'm hopeful that good-for-the-end-user changes will come about as a result.

Interesting, if the only logic path in the code is one where multiple flags are sensed, this would imply that for some reason the hardware device some how let a few flags slip by for a brief moment in time. I will follow up with the Hardware guys, so that they know there is a chance that their device might be letting a few flags slip through (1 occurance of the error in 2 + weeks).

At the same time, if something is indeed being done and developers are back in there with their sleeves rolled up, you may want to suggest they double check the logic and routines around this particular issue to be double sure that the error message is indeed only triggered as intended.  The reason I say this is that for the last 3 weeks, I have had a "hardware" device (not software, no software was installed or required to use this Hardware filter) between the STB and the MCE that strips the flags from the signal. The device seems to do its job, so at least the major percent of the time MCE now works for me and records the channels that have inappropriate flags embedded in them. I am sure if I remove the device that MCE will immediately start throwing lots of these can not record errors. It may be that the hardware lets the odd flag slip... I have no way of knowing for sure... but it may also be that MCE is throwing that message occassionally under other circumstances (which may account for some of the MCE users problems here, obviously not all).

It is good to hear that something is finally being done. My appologies to you if you think I am being unfair and unjust in my conclussions. Some of us did however bring this up almost a year ago now, and there is still no fix from Microsoft and no official statement about whatever it is that is happening that you can't tell us about. As I mentioned, personally I have been a long time advocate of MS. Perhaps denial is the wrong choice of word, but the "public" actions (or inaction) taken in this matter to date certainly don't strike me as ones that are being made with real "awareness" of how they are impacting the publics perception of Microsoft in this matter.

 

Just wondering if any progress has been made to rectify this issue. I'm currently using GB-PVR with XP pro to avoid the Copyright issue. I would love to be able to go back to Vista again. The only reason I purchased it was to use it as a PVR, and due to the problems here in Canada it is just not reliable enough to use. I hope this issue will soon be fixed!

 

Nothing I can report to you guys. I will when I can.

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This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

not sure if you guys are still looking for people who are experiencing this but I thought I would add my name to the list.

Up until about a month a go I did not a have a single content protection error while trying to record. It started with a couple of shows on tmn here in canada;  entourage and flight of the conchords.  Now it is appearing on teletoon, family , treehouse, and mpixl.

 

The latest occurred today.

Location: Hamilton Ontario

Provider:  Source Cable

Show:  Ben 10

Channel:  Teletoon

time: 10:46 am.

 

 

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"There are only 10 types of people in the
world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't"

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