http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/159438.aspx , there are links to screen snaps of "INVALID TIME" on my post there.

Hey, did anyone ever figure out what the password was to start watching the show again after "INVALID TIME"?

Very interesting....long time lurker here! Thanks for the very helpful information.Randy G and others for the "image stabalizer filters info"

All in all it seems, with MCE 2005 and current issues that seem to be getting exponentially worse, (losing vital functions)that I will have to find alternatives. rather than install MCE 2005,Seems as though you can fill volumes with" the real" issues that never seem to be addressed.Thanks but no thanks !

this is just getting out of hand, now. seriously! "invalid time"?! who comes up with this stuff?

Yeah, so, "invalid time" is a strange message, but you get the point, right: for content that you're only allowed to have a copy of for a particular amount of time - whether it be CGMS-A protected content or a movie you downloaded from Movielink or whatever - if you reset your clock while you have that content, our software is going to think you're trying to subvert the CP rules.

Syncing your clock, though, seems like it shouldn't result in a significant enough change to cause the error message to show up. How far off was the clock anyway when it went to sync?

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This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Hi Jessica,

Well I do understand the concept of Time bombed content... I am not sure I see how this should apply to the "copy never" scenario. So I guess, you are telling me that besides the "copy never" flag, that the cable/content guys must be pushing out some other flag or restriction that imposses a best before stamp on the content? It is not like I was purchasing a rental online or something. These are your typical movies and series on cable that get repeated in various cycles on Movie Central... "playing this month" kind of stuff, or in this particular case an episode of a series which after airing however many times they play it this week, will likely go into reruns in the future.

As for the sync and the offset... I don't have the precise information as to how far the clock was off. As a matter of fact I can't even be 100% sure if the sync routine actually fired during the show near the time that the message came up. However, I believe the NIST utility that I have is set to run several times a day and that the clock is never off by more than a few seconds.  Way back I found this was necessary in order to keep the recorder in sync so that I didn't miss the first few or last few minutes of shows because the built in clock of the HP Media Center wasn't great at keeping precise time and would drift by a few minutes over time. The time diff was especially problematic when recording shows back to back.  However, since I can hardly record anything these days, I guess that issue is mute :-)

So yeah... I agree, being that the computer is well within a one minute window of time difference... I wouldn't think your software should trigger an error even if the time sync routine did adjust the clock by a fraction of a second or even a few seconds. How touchy is the time sync logic that you are reffering to? Is it down to the minute? I would expect that it would be within a day but geesh down to the minute or second seems a bit extreme.

 

 

 

JessZahn:

Yeah, so, "invalid time" is a strange message, but you get the point, right: for content that you're only allowed to have a copy of for a particular amount of time - whether it be CGMS-A protected content or a movie you downloaded from Movielink or whatever - if you reset your clock while you have that content, our software is going to think you're trying to subvert the CP rules.

Syncing your clock, though, seems like it shouldn't result in a significant enough change to cause the error message to show up. How far off was the clock anyway when it went to sync?

Mine syncs every 2 hours, as follows:
12/06/2007 12:37:46 AM: Time Synchronized to Host 'bonehed.lcs.mit.edu' : -0.161 (0062).
12/06/2007 02:37:46 AM: Time Synchronized to Host 'bonehed.lcs.mit.edu' : -0.199 (0062).
12/06/2007 04:37:46 AM: Time Synchronized to Host 'bonehed.lcs.mit.edu' : -0.193 (0062).
12/06/2007 06:37:45 AM: Time Synchronized to Host 'bonehed.lcs.mit.edu' : -0.336 (0062).
12/06/2007 08:37:45 AM: Time Synchronized to Host 'bonehed.lcs.mit.edu' : -0.195 (0062).
12/06/2007 10:37:45 AM: Time Synchronized to Host 'bonehed.lcs.mit.edu' : -0.195 (0062).

It seems to me it had something to do with the buffer, if you weren't behind a bit then maybe it wouldn't fire.  IF you are were watching the buffer (like you pressed pause for a minute to go pee), every time it would sync, it would fire the blue screen.

Just a note on this, I use a 3rd party time sync app, as appears the other poster.  I don't use any of the windows ones, and it is entirely possible this doesn't affect systems with do not use 3rd party time sync applications.

Now - the dumb thing.  This seems to only be applied to "copy never" content.  At least here, since the only two flags we get is "copy never" or no restriction at all.

Since you can't record the stupid show anyway, this appears to be "leftover" code from pre-RU2 when you still could record it.    It's kinda crazy to apply the "don't subvert CP rules" to the timeshift buffer.


 

JessZahn:

...: for content that you're only allowed to have a copy of for a particular amount of time - whether it be CGMS-A protected content or a movie you downloaded from Movielink or whatever...

Jessica ! :-)

Did you just sneek a hint of an upcoming patch to us?   :-) :-)

What CGMS-A protected content flag is "allowed to have a copy of for a particular amount of time" ?

:-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-) 

Nope.

For Copy Never and Copy No More content, you can't record, but the pause buffer is supposed to work for up to 90 minutes. And MovieLink content I think has to be completed by the time 24 hours is up (so you can pause the movie, but you have to finish it later that day or whatever).

And that's how things should have been working since XP MCE rollup #2...

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This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

RandyG:

And YES, I will confirm without a doubt, after you have a CGMS-A blocker, you will never see that particular blue screen again.

Well RandyG I hope you are right... however Jessica's mention of 'Copy No More' got me Googling and I stumbled across something called

   CGMS-A+

and the
   
   Copy Protection Technical Working Group

which Microsoft does seem to be a member of.

http://cptwg.org/

http://cptwg.org/Assets/Presentations/CGMS-Aplus5-7-03.ppt

http://www.cptwg.org/Assets/TEXT%20FILES/ARDG/ARDG%20final%20doc/ARDG%20Analysis%20Matrix%20V-RAM_VEIL.xls

Does anyone know if CGMS-A+ is in the wild yet and if MCE enforces it as well?

Sounds like they are trying to close down the filtered solution approach, so besides my MCE becoming a boat anchor my new filter may be one too.

It is great that Microsoft is an upstanding corporate citizen in contributing to these groups and enforcing the standards from the playback side of things to police users... but it sounds like more policing of providers is necessary or the whole standard becomes meaningless once the providers decide (as they have in Canada) to just lock everything that they feel like, instead of just what was agreed upon when the particular standards were made. Too bad the CPTWG guys couldn't find a way to use their own techniques to only enforce these protection mechanisms if they originate from a compliant and respectable source. Play nice or you get ignored. Hey Microsoft... you make developers use and buy certificates to validate their software... couldn't you insist that content providers also use some sort of cert in the stream and you only enforce the protection if the cert is valid and not suspended or revoked due to misuse?  (to be honest I think software certs are lame and just a cash cow for Verisign, but my point is the providers need to be legit and have some skin in the game for the standards to work).

The impact of a provider not complying to the standards clearly seems to have much further reaching and more negative impact than the other way around. It makes it hard to feel sorry for them.

My reply from the CTC...

Thank you for taking the time to contact the CRTC.

 

Your concerns - while much appreciated - do not appear to raise any regulatory issues which the CRTC might further pursue on your behalf. We are not involved in the regulation of any of the technology (television or computer or intermediary equipment) which the subscriber might need or use to receive or record television signals. Nor am I aware of any other government department which might be involved. 

 

That being said, we did make an inquiry of Shaw, due to many similar complaints and Shaw indicates that it does not alter any of the flags present in the programming it distributes.  Quoting from the Shaw response: “Any copy protection flag that is in the content has been placed there by the rights holders, or by the programming service in accordance with their contractual arrangements with the rights holders.”

 

I hope this information is helpful.

It's entirely possible the flag is there on the content.  And Shaw,  Bell, and Rogers  JUST recently started "enabling" the set box to pass it on to the SVideo port.  
Or maybe Shaw is adding it too and not being entirely truthful.  Or maybe they are just clueless. 

(Personally I can't see how reruns of Reba, 20 year old "Winnie the Poo" etc is flagged "copy never" by the owners of Reba and "Winnie the Poo"...)    

but it really doesn't matter anyway.

What it boils down to, as you have just been told by the CRTC, is that nobody is breaking any laws.   They can put "copy never" on every single channel you get, and nobody will get their fingers slapped, since no Canadian law was broken.  CGMS-A is unregulated in Canada.  It doesn't legally exist here.

Shaw's own PVR ignores all flags.  As does Rogers, and Bell.   They don't care about Media Center.    If their own PVR works and the competition's doesn't, it doesn't break their hearts.

It's not going to change. 

So you can either join us in futile begging for Microsoft to please fix it for us,
or go spend a couple hundred bucks on CGMS-A blockers....  sorry, nothing else you can do.

MrSheep:

RandyG:

And YES, I will confirm without a doubt, after you have a CGMS-A blocker, you will never see that particular blue screen again.

Well RandyG I hope you are right... however Jessica's mention of 'Copy No More' got me Googling and I stumbled across something called CGMS-A+

I built my own blockers, so I know they work.  I still run a 3rd party time sync utility, and have had no issues with Line21 disabled in the signal anymore.


As for CGMS-A+  and / or VEIL , ya I read about that too.  Scary.

Veil is spread out on the video signal.   I don't know if the capture cards would pass that through or not.   If there ever is a media center update that goes that far and can't be worked around, I'll just throw it away and install a competing PVR platform.  There are lots to chose from now.
Loyalty only goes so far.

RandyG:

MrSheep:

RandyG:

And YES, I will confirm without a doubt, after you have a CGMS-A blocker, you will never see that particular blue screen again.

Well RandyG I hope you are right... however Jessica's mention of 'Copy No More' got me Googling and I stumbled across something called CGMS-A+

I built my own blockers, so I know they work.  I still run a 3rd party time sync utility, and have had no issues with Line21 disabled in the signal anymore.

Well my filter arrived today and so far the early results look promissing. I seem to be able to record again!

Just had this issue for the first time. I recently upgraded to Vista Ultimate and all was going fine until I recorded a few episodes of the new season of Chris Angel Mind Freak. All three episods came up with the restricted content screen at 15 to 20 minutes into the show. I can't remember what network the shows aired on but I live in Nova Scotia, Canada and use Eastlink as my analog cable provider. I think if this issue is not resolved soon I may have to go back to Xp pro and use an alternative media center application. I feel that i've wasted good money on a product that does not provide (at least in my region of Canada) the functionallity it advertises. I want a reliable media center application, not one that provides crap shoot recordings!

Which filter did you go with MrSheep?
I've been looking at https://www.facetvideo.com/xcart/customer/product.php?productid=83

Been trying to get an alternate product called MediaPortal up and running for 3 days now but the IRblaster and channel guide is in alpha at best with sketchy documentation and full of crashes.  I may just suck it up and toss another $150 at my Media Centre :(