You can always spend more money and buy filters.

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Here's what our content protection test lead says to do:

If they follow the instructions on http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=891664 specifically those under ‘RESOLUTION’ section, it will reset their state. I would suggest creating a backup of the DRM folder before the delete step (step3).

 

That should get him to a state where Live TV on those CGMS protected channels will work.

 

I'm not sure why your DRM got into a bad state in the first place...I'm trying to find out reasons why that could happen.

 

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This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Ok, so reading the KB article gets me thinking...

Would playing a basic show (like House, which wouldn't have been protected) on our one MediaCenter machine, from a DVD that was recorded on our other MediaCenter machine cause the DRM to get in a bad state like this?

I did recently catch-up on an episode that I missed and that my wife had caught on her machine and dumped to DVD for me.

The show itself played back without a problem, but as far as new things touching this machine go, that is the only thing I can think of. If the recorded show somehow caries dirty finger prints of the other MCE hardware that it was recorded from, maybe this confused the machine somehow to start acting up during live playback.

I don't recall ever playing a dvd cut from her machine on this machine in the past, so there might be a possible link in the timing of the two.

My filter is on order... I just hope it resolves these issues, and that the cable companies don't find some other technique of messing with us that the filter doesn't weed out.

JessZahn:

Here's what our content protection test lead says to do:

If they follow the instructions on http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=891664 specifically those under ‘RESOLUTION’ section, it will reset their state. I would suggest creating a backup of the DRM folder before the delete step (step3).

 

That should get him to a state where Live TV on those CGMS protected channels will work.

 

I'm not sure why your DRM got into a bad state in the first place...I'm trying to find out reasons why that could happen.

 

Could you ask him how do you do it with Media Player 11?    I tried helping someone back up their licenses the other day, and found the "manage licenses" option like Media Player 10, has disappeared off the Tools menu.
I checked Media player 11 on my own PC as well, same thing, option isn't there anymore.

RandyG:

MrSheep:

[snip]

We can confirm that Shaw Cable does not alter or curtail any of the programming that we receive and distribute from programmers with respect to any copy protection flags.  The content is passed through seamlessly to any device as it is received.  Any copy protection flag that is in the content has been placed there by the rights holders, or by the programming service in accordance with their contractual arrangements with the rights holders. As the Commission is aware, right holders do this to protect their rights and to prevent unauthorized duplication and transmission of the content, particularly with respect to digital content.  

Shaw’s network controlled HD PVRs allow content to be recorded for personal use, in accordance with the terms of agreements with the rights holders for this type of equipment. However, the playback of the content to a digital recording device (eg. A PC or DVD-R) will have Copy Control Information (CCI) and Copy Generation Management System for Analog (CGMS-A) flags in place (if present in the content) to prevent unauthorized digital duplication and transmission of the content. With respect to customers who are having problems trying to record content on their PCs, this has nothing to do with Shaw.  We suspect it is a compatibility issue, or a rights management issue.   

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Wow.  Shaw lied in their response.  It is technically impossible for to "pass through seamlessly" CGMS-A on signals that are transmitted DIGITALLY (the majority of "problem" channels are in the digital package).   CGMS-A is an analog flag which is trasmitted on line21 of an analog signal.  That line does NOT exist in a digitally transmitted signal.  Nor does any form of CGMS-A.
So the CGMS-A has to be - added - at the cable box, after decoding the signal, prior to it coming out the S-Video port.  

Shaw's response is correct, they did not lie, but perhaps simplified the answer a bit too much. You don't seeem to understand how MPEG2 works, so you think that this is not possible.

Yes, CGMS-A flags are in the digital signal. The CGMS-A info, along with the closed captioning info, is digitally encoded in the MPEG2 stream. When the digital signal is converted to an analog signal (at the cable plant, or at your set top box), the CC and CGMS-A info is put into the VBI. That's all there is to it.

Rogers, Shaw, and other cable companies are NOT putting this info into the signal. This information is encoded into the video in most cases by the original "rights holder." For example, Sony Pictures, or Warner Brothers, would put this information into the video signal. This is sent to the broadcaster (e.g. CityTV), who then sends the signal to the cable company, who then sends the signal to you.

The cable company doesn't even have the equipment to insert this information into the signal in real time. The only time they would insert or verify that CGMS-A is present would be for pay-per-view and on-demand programming.

Most likely the reason that some people are seeing the CGMS-A information more recently is system upgrades. The old cable equipment (in the central offices) is being replaced. The old equipment was likely built long before CGMS-A was ever dreamt up. The new equipment decodes it and puts it back into the analog signal properly. You'll likely see this even more if you are on an all-digital channel lineup (some of the new set top boxes don't have analog tuners at all, everything is digital right up to your box. And those boxes insert the CGMS-A info when they go from analog to digital.)

Yes, I used to work for a cable company! It seems that a lot of the broadcasters/content creators don't even know they have CGMS-A in the signal - a lot of the video production tools in use do this for them automatically, and they are unlikely to know that the bits are even set wrong. Oh well.

The best way to "fix" this is to only buy products that ignore CGMS-A. It's not legally required in Canada. so just buy products that don't pay attention to it. It would be nice if MCE ignored it for those of us in Canada...

Chris - Moderator:

RandyG:

So the CGMS-A has to be - added - at the cable box, after decoding the signal, prior to it coming out the S-Video port.

I agree 100% that this is happening.  I've noticed this problem with DIRECTV.  DIRECTV is clearly 100% digital, so it's hard to put CGMS-A on the broadcast.  However, back when I had HBO at school my HBO recordings where indeed protected.

So, the only way that it could of been added was via the STB.  My guess in this case is that DIRECTV's EPG data triggered the STB to add the CGMS-A data before it's output.

CGMS-A can be encoded in the MPEG2 stream. The set-top puts it (along with CC info, etc.) into the VBI when the digital to analog conversion takes place. It's probably not the EPG code dooing it, but the DA converter.

 

 

Right, but the STB has to know what to apply it to.  For DIRECTV, since nothing is broadcast with CGMS-A then something else has to trigger it.  Yes it's being applied in the digital to analog converstion, but it doesn't happen with all content output.  Since it only happens on a channel HBO (which is CGMS-A'ed up on cable) the only thing I can think of is the EPG data on the DIRECTV STB to tirgger the STB to add CGMS-A in the DA process.

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Chris Lanier
The Green Button Forum Moderator

Of course it's possible to record an equivalent in MPEG... otherwise we wouldn't have this problem to begin with now, would we?   LOL.  CEA-608 is a line20/21 standard for dropping CC / CGMS-A / and whatever other junk they throw in there.  Line 21 specifically can be translated into CEA-708B bits in the video portion of MPEG2.

( Interestingly/unrelated, I happen to have some genuine CEA-708B with "copy never" Mpeg video content, and MCE plays it just fine. It doesn't seem to know how to parse that, lol  )

tvguy:

   [snip] ...You don't seeem to understand how MPEG2 works, so you think that this is not possible.

Yes, CGMS-A flags are in the digital signal. The CGMS-A info, along with the closed captioning info, is digitally encoded in the MPEG2 stream. When the digital signal is converted to an analog signal (at the cable plant, or at your set top box), the CC and CGMS-A info is put into the VBI. That's all there is to it.

Rogers, Shaw, and other cable companies are NOT putting this info into the signal. This information is encoded into the video in most cases by the original "rights holder." For example, Sony Pictures, or Warner Brothers, would put this information into the video signal. This is sent to the broadcaster (e.g. CityTV), who then sends the signal to the cable company, who then sends the signal to you.

The cable company doesn't even have the equipment to insert this information into the signal in real time.

uh huh.  sure.  Except Shaw DOES have the equipment, and has been explicity licensing the technology and planning  to implement CGMS-A on DCT cable boxes and newer for two years now. 

From Macrovision's financial statements: 2005/03/31  (Macrovision licenses CGMS-A)

"

Shaw Cablesystems in Canada became the first North
American cable operator to activate our PPV/VOD copy protection technology. We
are in discussions with a number of major studios and system operators to
activate VOD copy protection in the U.S."

Your concept would work if everyone got hit at the same time, that would mean all the "rights holders" suddenly put CGMS-A on at the same, LOL...   but it didn't work that way.  It rolled out slowly across the country over 5 months as the firmware for the FOUR major providers created/updated/enabled the feature in the set top boxes.   The same channels worked in some cities and not others for months, depending on provider.  Further, I know someone who STILL works at shaw.  He said the very first  DCT firmware update that began this adventure with CGMS-A on the S-Video port on regular channels as well was rolled out by Shaw in June last year.   The scope was broadened starting January. 

"Shaw Communications Activates Macrovision’s VOD Content Protection

SANTA CLARA, Calif. December 7, 2004-Macrovision Corporation (NASDAQ: MVSN) announced today that Shaw Communications Inc. (NYSE: SJR) a cable operator based in Calgary, Canada has activated Macrovision’s content protection for Video on Demand (VOD) content. Macrovision’s technology prevents unauthorized copying of VOD movies on VCRs, DVD recorders, personal video recorders (PVRs/DVRs) and hard drive recorders. Macrovision’s technology can also be used to permit secure storage and movement of VOD movies to PVRs and portable media centers to provide more flexible viewing options for consumers.
Shaw has enabled Macrovision’s content protection technology on over 300,000 VOD capable digital set-top boxes. Shaw utilizes Motorola models DCT2000 and DCT2500 set-top boxes. Macrovision’s video content protection technology is incorporated in over 90% of the 140 million digital set-top boxes and personal video recorders deployed worldwide.
“Shaw understands that protecting VOD movies benefits both content suppliers and cable operators alike. Most new DVD movies are protected with Macrovision’s technology. By implementing VOD content protection, Shaw is helping to ensure that VOD revenue does not negatively impact DVD revenue, which will in turn, convince content suppliers to release more content to VOD. We’re very pleased that Shaw has joined other cable and direct broadcast satellite operators worldwide that have implemented Macrovision,” said Ken Jacobus, Senior Manager of Business Development for Macrovision..."


If you really want to pick at that post about "seemless pass through" a month ago... 

 "(CGMS-A) is a copy protection mechanism for analog television signals. It is not related to the Broadcast flag, which is designed for use in digital television signals"  "CGMS-A is standardized in IEC 61880 to appear in the 525i and 480i video signal as vertical blanking interval (VBI) data on line 20. "
Shaw may or may not have it at the source, if you suggest their source supplies Shaw with analog content to overlay on stations like TeleToon...   but regardless.  This is a DIGITAL station.  It is NOT available on the analog feed.  Therefore they can not SEEMLESSLY pass thru the cgms-a signal, since there must be at minimum one transition , a translation to a similar digital signal (CEA-708B) , before outputting yet another analog signal (CEA-608) at the s-video port, which is another transition and translation.   The CMGS-A *absolutely* is generated in the cable box in this case.  There is no video line-21 in MPEG.  That is exactly what I said.  Transitions and translations does not equal "pass through".  It is converted to what someone/something determines is an equivalant, and then back.

And now the kicker... TVGuy, all this techo-junk.  Nobody CARES dude.  Who started it, where it comes from, or who adds it, or when it's put in the signal.  It makes no difference AT ALL TO THE END USER, which is us.  It's a very silly thing to debate or argue about, since no matter what anybody's personal opinion is,  it ain't gonna change.   It's going to get worse.  It's unregulated.  It won't BE regulated, since Analog is already scheduled for destruction in Canada in a couple years, CRTC couldn't care less about making new rules for defunct technology.  

That is the point here.  Everyone can record anything they want on a cable company branded PVR, and you can only record 1/2 the shows with Media Center.   The rest  is "restricted content".

This is the way the signal is here in Canada, with ALL the providers, no matter where you are, or who you subscribe to.   If Microsoft wants the software to do as it advertises it will, record REGULAR analog TV, then Microsoft needs to relax the restriction of CGMS-A "Copy Never" in countries like Canada that have no "FCC" handing out $15K fines for putting it on NON-PPV/VOD sources. 

Otherwise "Media Center" is just a conversation piece with 1/2 the functionality of a VHS machine.  Or, as everyone points out (including me), if you are Canadian, you better be prepared to dish out $100+ per tuner for CGMS-A blocker devices if you want a functional Media Center.

geez, that was too long.
All I meant was that if you had a vga monitor that also has a vga output, that is pass-thu.  Some TVs have line it, and line out for the amp.  That is pass-thru. 
If you convert VGA to DVI and have another box that converts DVI back to VGA, that is no longer pass-thru.... and if your TV equalizes or processed the sound before hitting the line-out, then that's not pass thru either.   Shaw (digital channels) is not transmitting verbatim anything they get from the "rights holders".  It is transcoded or encoded to digital, converted back, and the CGMS-A added back in at the box from whatever they encoded in the native, or translated 708.   Not "pass thru" which is all I meant a month ago.  Right?

And all I meant with Shaw/Bell/Rogers is that even if the content was flagged or not from wherever it came from, there is nothing at all, no law or mandate making them put cgms-a on on the analog output of the set top box. Over the last 6 months, they definitately chose to turn it on.     They can turn it off just as easily as turning it on. 

But now that it's on, there is no way they are ever turning it back off... it's Microsoft's turn to make things right, since the "copy never" flag is not being used as a deterrent from recording VOD/PPV as it was intended, and how Microsoft wrote Media Center to work with these flags.

There, see?  I can be brief after all ;-)

I just checked myself and sure enough WMP11 does not have the manage button.

Checking on wikipedia:
"The License Management tool available in prior versions of Windows Media Player has been removed since version 11. This prevents users of music download services from directly using Windows Media Player to back up their licenses and restore them to another computer. The user now must directly use the store's license restoration services."

Jessica, given the information in the kb that you posted, could this be used to backup our MCE licenses so we can reinstall/upgrade if needed... at least on MCE 2005 machines with WMP10?

RandyG:

This is the way the signal is here in Canada, with ALL the providers, no matter where you are, or who you subscribe to.   If Microsoft wants the software to do as it advertises it will, record REGULAR analog TV, then Microsoft needs to relax the restriction of CGMS-A "Copy Never" in countries like Canada that have no "FCC" handing out $15K fines for putting it on NON-PPV/VOD sources. 

Randy, does this fine exist for the US?  Did I miss something when I checked?
And Randy, wouldnt it be hard to but such a provision in vista that wouldnt get exploited for our use in the US? Not that I want this 'feature' in the US either but content providers might go nuts on MS if any sort of backdoor disable code existed at all.

Okay... so I can't record Movie Central (which as I understand it is NOTdeemed "premium" content like PPV) due to Microsoft's choice to cripple MCE whenever some yet to be identified culprit (cable cos say its not them... so it must be someone further up the content food chain.) chooses to abuse the intent of CGMS-A flags.

So I am then faced with missing most of the movie content that I pay monthly for and many of the specialty series that air on Movie Central, like Stargate Atlantis and Regenisis. Occassionally if I am lucky I can catch the odd show live... or can I?

Well I already mentioned the intermitent "Restricted Content" message that pops up to anoy me while watching these CGMS-A crippled channels....

Now I get another one popping up!

_________
Invalid Time

The clock on your computer has been changed. Viewing of this content is not allowed if the clock has been changed since it was initially aired. You will have to restart Media Center to view any additional premium content.

Well, once again this is live not recorded.
I checked, the time on that PC is bang on (it is set to adjust itself over the internet).
I was abour 45 minutes into the show when it sudenly decides to throw this error a lock out (blue screen protected content) and this message doesn't go away.  I had hit pause a few times during the show to run out of the room and do something... so if I do reboot right now I am pretty much guaranteed to miss the rest of the show.

This is ABSOLETELY INSANE!!!!
I'm sorry Jessica, but if this is by design, someone needs to go back to the drawing board (or maybe back to design school).

I really hope this little filtler coming in all the way from Israel fixes all of these problems by cleaning up my signal.

My honest prediction... if your team doesn't get a handle on this CGMS-A stuff and really fast, the Media Center team's future is going to be cast into serious doubt.

This user experience is simply not going to fly in the main stream.

So what is was worse... missing the episode altogether or watching a good chunk of it... getting into it and then be cut out of watching the end of it. Shesh... I really hate this either way you slice it.

I think someone should force all of MCE team and senior management to try and use their MCE devices for a month with CGMS-A forced on them so they can really understand what it is like.

MrSheep:

Now I get another one popping up!

_________
Invalid Time

The clock on your computer has been changed. Viewing of this content is not allowed if the clock has been changed since it was initially aired. You will have to restart Media Center to view any additional premium content.

Well, once again this is live not recorded.
I checked, the time on that PC is bang on (it is set to adjust itself over the internet).
I was abour 45 minutes into the show when it sudenly decides to throw this error a lock out (blue screen protected content) and this message doesn't go away.  I had hit pause a few times during the show to run out of the room and do something... so if I do reboot right now I am pretty much guaranteed to miss the rest of the show.

This is ABSOLETELY INSANE!!!!
I'm sorry Jessica, but if this is by design, someone needs to go back to the drawing board (or maybe back to design school).

I really hope this little filtler coming in all the way from Israel fixes all of these problems by cleaning up my signal.

My honest prediction... if your team doesn't get a handle on this CGMS-A stuff and really fast, the Media Center team's future is going to be cast into serious doubt.

This user experience is simply not going to fly in the main stream.

So what is was worse... missing the episode altogether or watching a good chunk of it... getting into it and then be cut out of watching the end of it. Shesh... I really hate this either way you slice it.

I think someone should force all of MCE team and senior management to try and use their MCE devices for a month with CGMS-A forced on them so they can really understand what it is like.

Heh, ya, that's a funny one.   You have to disable ANY external time syncing software while watching any "restricted content" live, or you will get that "INVALID TIME" message the next time it syncs and adjusts your system time..

And YES, I will confirm without a doubt, after you have a CGMS-A blocker, you will never see that particular blue screen again.