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Incorrect Duration Times Issue

Last post 02-25-2008, 8:38 AM by kcsnow. 92 replies.
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  •  10-11-2007, 11:54 AM 214106

    Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    I and others are having sporadic but repeating problems with VMC recordings having incorrect durations.  I will try to summarize as best I can what the behaviour is like here, and have included a link to the current thread in the "Vista Media Center - General" section: http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/210597.aspx (Note: in the thread itself you'll see a link to forums at another website where a group of people are complaining about the exact same issue)

    The issue itself:

    Occasionaly but not on every recording, Vista Media Center will record a show and when you go back to play it, regardless of its filesize and actual duration, VMC will think the total duration of the show is dramatically less than it actually is.  For instance, it often for whatever reason decides that the total time of the show is 5:00 minutes, 6:00 minutes or 7:00 minutes, even when the filesize and actual duration of the recording is a half hour or full hour.  I have summarized/categorized our findings about this behaviour as follows:

    PRIMARY SIDE EFFECTS OF THE ISSUE:

    - FWD, RWD, SKIP and REPLY are all made essentially useless in a recording where this occurs - if you choose to use any of those remote keys, the show will react accordingly but by too large an amount.  (pressing fwd will start fowarding but do a big skip before it does so, pressing skip will skip but by three times the normal amount of time, etc.)

    - *IF* you have a recording where this problem has occurred *and* you play it back without ever touching any of the remote buttons mentioned previously, the show will play from beginning to end and you'll never even know there was a problem at all.  Typically, all of us experiencing the issue only know we have a new recording with the problem when we go to skip the first commercial, then we typically have to restart the playback and just mute our way through the commercials and let it play out with no skipping.

    COMMUNITY ANALYSIS AND NOTES SO FAR:

    - Although the shows seem to most often show incorrect durations of 5,6 or 7 minutes, some have seen ones of 15 and I have personally had one show incorrectly report 25.  One user using tools out there that look at the metadata in DVR-MS files has noted that the actual durations of the problem recordings is not really a even "minutes" number - they are often actually things like "5 minutes, 14 seconds", etc.

    - There was much thought that this might be an issue with the "Cool & Quiet" feature of AMD X2 CPUs as the vast majority of users with the problem all use them, but there are now users in the threads reporting it with an AMD Athlon XP CPU and an Intel Quad-Core CPU.

    - There does not seem to be any commonality to tuner or type of tuner.  This is happening to user's recording OTA HDTV, Standard cable signal, and a variety of actual tuner cards.

    - There does not seem to be any commonality to video card - users with the problem are split among Nvidia and ATI cards.

    - There does not seem to be any commonality to DVD decoder - user with the problem are split among the built-in Microsoft decoder, Cyberlink PowerDVD Ultra, and the NVidia decoder.

    - The chance of this occuring to a recording by a user who has reported the issue seems to be all over the place.  Some users have seen this a time or two and thats all, while others are far more frequent.  (I for instance record around 6-7 scheduled shows every day with VMC and there is almost always at least 1 of those shows per day with the problem)

    - The issue occurs on playback of a problem recording whether or not it has finished recording.  (users with the problem sometimes start the playback of a recording only half done and it already has the current duration wrong and exhibits the behaviour)

    - Although probably not a big enough set of users for a *definate* pattern, some of us are seeing this occur with certain shows each and every time they are recorded.  For instance, I think  there are now three of us who so far have had this occur on each of the "new" episodes of "Heroes" this season.

    -----------------------

    I hope this is enough information to start with! :)  Someone rightly noted in our current thread that this question belonged here in this group so we call all pursue some kind of answer on the issue with a better liklihood of someone from MS reading it.

     

  •  10-14-2007, 12:56 AM 214542 in reply to 214106

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    I have the same problem with my setup:
    • Vista Ultimate
    • Athlon X2 4200
    • 2GB RAM
    • Hauppauge 250 (x2) (Clear QAM)
    • HDHomeRun (Clear QAM)
    My input source is Comcast cable.

    I don't ever recall experiencing this problem in Windows 2005 MCE (which I ran for over a year with the same rig and input sources).

    Thanks in advance!
  •  10-14-2007, 9:28 AM 214594 in reply to 214542

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    Same here.  I'm really hoping that someone from MS will comment in this thread eventually - there seem to be plenty of us with the problem,

     

  •  10-15-2007, 11:26 AM 214892 in reply to 214594

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    I hadn't heard of this before; I'll ask around.

    As an aside, though, this forum isn't intended to be support. Obviously sometimes we do help with support questions - it's a good way for the product group to get direct feedback from end-users on what they're experiencing - but we're a development team working on the next release of Media Center, not sustained engineering. So I wouldn't actually agree this "belongs" here - The Green Button is totally about users helping one another, so it could belong here or wherever it started out.

    The only stuff that I'd say definitely belongs here is feature requests for my team and discussion with me and my team about technologies, implementations, etc - as much as we're allowed to talk about stuff we're doing in the future. Like, threads like "What should Media Center's integration with Windows Home Server look like?" is a perfect example - we get to hear from you about what you want, and throw ideas around for feedback on both sides.


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
  •  10-15-2007, 11:49 AM 214899 in reply to 214892

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    i am one of the ones having this issue and it would be nice to get it fixed....  hopefully its something documented. 
  •  10-15-2007, 12:03 PM 214912 in reply to 214892

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    Can anyone experiencing this issue post a recording to some web/ftp site somewhere so we can have a look at it?

    Also...is the HDHomeRun tuner common to all of the people experiencing this?


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
  •  10-15-2007, 12:11 PM 214918 in reply to 214912

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    i thought in the thread there were a few non hdhomerun tuners but most had hdhomerun.  i have a hdhomerun but only get the issue every 4 or 5 months where a few recordings will have the issue.

    hopefully somebody has the issue on a SD recording because trying to send you a HD sourced episode will take a very long time.  i would send you one but i think i deleted them all already (dont keep them when they screwup... watch off the cable dvr).  i will save the next time i see it if somebody hasnt posted a file by then.
  •  10-15-2007, 1:09 PM 214942 in reply to 214918

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    As I mentioned in the first post, there is no real commonality to tuner card being used - while there are a number of folks using the HDHomeRun, I for instance (and others) have the problem a lot yet are not using the HDHomeRun.  (I use 2 Hauppauge PVR-250 cards and 1 ATI TV-Wonder 650 myself)

    I also delete the shows once I watch them, but I have on average around 6-7 shows recorded per day, and there is pretty much always at least 1 of those shows that has the problem.  I can host the next recording I have with the problem and would be happy to send a private message with credentials for my FTP in order to pass it along.

    BTW, is there an "official" website/forum/etc. that should be used for support in regards to Media Center?  I posted here and frequent here since I've been using MCE since the first pre-2005 version and generally find this to me the most active location for actually finding answers to things.

  •  10-15-2007, 1:18 PM 214946 in reply to 214942

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    Hah!!  Got one today and realized it right after I posted my last message. :)

    This is a 30min SD recording off of HGTV - 1.58GB in size but it thinks the duration is 5 minutes. (it shows the correct "Date Created" and "Date Modified" times as well that are exactly what they should be for the 30min show)

    I'm going to put this on an FTP and I'll private-message Jess with info to grab it.

  •  10-16-2007, 2:58 PM 215278 in reply to 214946

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    Got the PM and I've passed along the info to the folks who said they'd investigate. I'll let you know what they find.
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
  •  10-17-2007, 11:00 AM 215479 in reply to 215278

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    We found the bug. It's been fixed for our next release, but in my opinion, it doesn't reach the very high bar for an update outside of the regular product cycle.

    Probably this is a fairly unpopular answer, so to offer a little more transparency into our process, I'll share a little about the sustained engineering process for Media Center (and Windows). I used to be the SE program manager for the TV team before I switched to feature development work.

    Basically, to get a fix made out-of-cycle, it needs to affect a large percentage of Windows users - not just Media Center users, because we can't target Media Center users only given that we ship in every copy of Home Premium and Ultimate. Since our update would affect all of those systems out there, just that alone makes it very difficult to do MC updates. So typically we need some other sort of pressure - OEMs stating they will lose sales or incur support costs as a result of the bug, or political or legal issues, etc.

    Another way, though, is to prove sheer numbers. At this point, despite a handful of people reporting the bug, I'm not sure we have a large enough number of people experiencing this bug to bring it above that bar. (I do think on the Canada CGMS-A issue we do, though.)

    So anyway, once we think it meets the bar, we have to go through a Windows-wide process to get approval. And those folks are looking very broadly at the Windows business and what's best, not just looking at Media Center customers (obviously we care about you the most!). They have to balance pushing down an update to all Windows customers worldwide and the potential for new bugs, instability, etc as a result against the actual problem we're trying to solve. Anyone who works in software development knows that every code change has the potential to destabilize something else - so all changes we make have to be as limited in scope as possible and we need to make as few as possible. We can never get the same level of testing on a fix out-of-cycle as we will in a full product release.

    So I'm not saying this definitely won't be fixed before our next release, but right now, we don't think we have the business justification to do it. I hope you take a teensy bit of comfort knowing we know about it, care about it, and feel a little gross that it exists.


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
  •  10-17-2007, 11:10 AM 215482 in reply to 215479

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    You're right, I think it will be an unpopular answer. :(

    I do feel a bit better knowing you know about it, care about it, and the fix should make it into the current release some day, however what I and the others experiencing the problem need right now is information about how to avoid it!  Can the technical details be shared about why this happens, whether or not it is related to specific software/hardware or other circumstances?

    I know I personally have this happen at least once each and every day.  I've been using MCE since the first version - far before the previous "2005 Version" and ultimately I will continue to do so even with this bug, but I would really *really* like to know if there are changes I could make to my config or system to help me either avoid this entirely or at least reduce the frequency.

     

  •  10-17-2007, 11:21 AM 215487 in reply to 215479

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    At least tell Andy (babgvant) - he'll probably have a workaround for us by the end of the day!

    Thanks, though, for getting this looked at.  I understand what you are saying about the release, but I don't buy into it.  I'm sorry I can't be more forgiving, but I guess disappointment is something that both sides of this transaction have to live with.
  •  10-17-2007, 11:26 AM 215489 in reply to 215482

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    Okay, so TOTALLY out of my area of expertise - I hope I explain this right.

    It happens when a capture driver (tv tuner driver) doesn't flag the first sample as a discontinuity. Some tuners do, some don't. So there are two possible fixes: We made a code change to be more robust when a capture driver doesn't do this, and that's what we'll release in the future. (No matter what the capture driver does, we'll force the first sample to be discontinuous.) Or, IHVs can update their driver to make sure this happens.

    So it looks to me that short of a fix by us or your tuner manufacturer, the only thing you can do is change tuners, which is likely not a good option. Plus, we don't know which tuners exhibit this and which don't - it was originally thought that just digital cable tuners did it, but obviously we know now that's not the case.


    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
  •  10-17-2007, 11:27 AM 215490 in reply to 215489

    Re: Incorrect Duration Times Issue

    By the way: if you guys experiencing this issue PM me with your tuner name/model that does this, we will follow up with the IHVs.
    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
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