Shouldn't the answers be "no^4"?  I think you'll need an extender to watch and CC content as it's tied to the machine that did the recording.

Thanks for the laugh btw :)

Andy,
Actually, no...the first answer is still Yes.  Just to watch Discovery HD in HD...not on the secondary machine.
Anyway, glad I could get a smile out of someone! :)

doh... misread the questions.  i must be overeager to badmouth OCUR ;)

Ghostlobster,

Sounds like a chat I had with my wife about another HD channel. You hit the nail on the head, and reasons everytime I think about this subject, renting a cable PVR crosses my mind.

I remember these same types of rants back in 2002 when Media Center was released for the first time -- via OEMs only. Prices back then for the entry level Media Center PC were equivalent to the CableCard (OCUR) systems of today (around $2,500 to use your figure, although I think you can get CableCard enabled systems for around $1,500 today). The people who build this technology must be allowed to recoup at least their costs (and hopefully make a profit at some point).

Early adopters always bear the most pain -- always.

There also tends to be a gross oversimplification of the engineering effort required to bring CableCard tuning to your personal computer. I'd also say you are *way* off base on the political front as well. It's really up to the content owners to determine how the content will be made available and I think a majority of them understand what can happen if they don't make it available in the manner which consumers wish.

I'm proud of the work we are doing on your behalf to make the content delivery more flexible and better than what we have today. Ultimately, we can only come up with solutions and technology which can work for both content owner and content consumer. If you, the content consumer, want to register an opinion on the content restrictions you should be talking with the content owners. Microsoft is but an enabler in these scenarios.

Just my 0.02.

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Charlie,
Thanks for chiming in here!  It is truly appreciated.  I'd like to comment on a few things:
"I remember these same types of rants back in 2002 when Media Center was released for the first time -- via OEMs only"
Yup, I was a pretty avid ranter then as well!

"although I think you can get CableCard enabled systems for around $1,500 today). The people who build this technology must be allowed to recoup at least their costs (and hopefully make a profit at some point)."
Yes, it is possible to get a CableCARD PC for around $1500, however, one that's up to snuff with the current DIY rigs being run around this place will end up in the $2500 range.  Dual DTCs, largs amounts of storage, HDCP video, sufficient RAM, the works.

"Early adopters always bear the most pain -- always."
Ouch.  I feel the pain!

"I'd also say you are *way* off base on the political front as well. It's really up to the content owners to determine how the content will be made available ..."
I'd be very interested to hear about this.  If I'm way off base, then I'd like to know how things really happened.  From the outside looking in, it appears that the content providers/owners dictated how their content would be made available and the restrictins that would need to be in place in order for them to sign off on it.  MS is not a content owner, I understand that, but it does not appear that MS used any of its significant weight to get the content owners to lighten up a bit.  In order to get to the market with one of the most requested features, MS just accepted whatever restrictions were placed upon their content handling and went with it.  Now, I'm not completely blaming MS for the CableCARD fiasco, it was probably the right business decision to get out there first.  However, right now enough time has passed for MS to lean on the content owners a little on behalf of their customers.

"I'm proud of the work we are doing on your behalf to make the content delivery more flexible and better than what we have today."
As you should be!  You guys are providing features and benefits that the others can't.  Sage TV, Myth, Media Portal, Mac TV, none of these guys have any CableCARD offerings.  That's huge and it speaks volumes fo the work you guys have done.  My point here is let's not be satisfied (us end users are never really satisfied anyway...give us an inch, we'll *** about it not being a mile!) with this and see what we can do to provide a more flexible end user friendly solution.

Thanks again for your reply here!  Your participation in these forums is irreplaceable.

I believe there is an important distinction between cost in 2002 and 2007 -- in 2002 you couldn't even get an entry level Media Center PC for less than $2,500. Entry level for a computer with Windows Media Center in 2007 is less than $400 at one major OEM. If I add a TV tuner (not CableCard), widescreen monitor and bump up the RAM to 2GB at that same OEM I'm still less than $800. I think you will agree even the entry level CableCard equipped Media Center PC at $1,500 is a tremendous improvement over first generation prices for early adopters.

It's really rather rare that one party in a business relationship 'dictates' terms to the other party -- usually little or no progress is made. As I said before, in most cases we are a content delivery enabler, not content owner. We must respect where the content owner wishes to restrict usage -- otherwise we can't help deliver the content. The content owner ultimately has to deal with the rewards (or consequences) of those restrictions. It's not proper for us to specify the content owners business model. I believe it is proper for us to assist them in seeing the opportunities and help them take advantage of those. And to a large extent, with CableCard, I believe we have been successful in doing both.

I'm really struggling to place a 'fiasco' moniker on the ability to have native digital cable, high definition content be available in Windows Media Center on the PC and consumable in other rooms via Media Center Extender. The general consumer really couldn't make this happen a year ago. Is the feature set complete and can we call it 'done'...? No, but it's a great first step. Remember your rants back in 2002? I'd be willing to bet all of them are moot now -- of course, they've been replaced with whole new and different rants. Working together I expect we will eventually make these new rants moot as well. :-)

I'll reiterate you should provide content feedback to the content owner -- the combined voices of consumers is usually the strongest advocate.

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Charlie,
Without a doubt, the entry level price point is much better than it was 5 years ago, I don't think anyone can argue that.  It'll get better going forward, I'm sure.  Actually, I'm certain that tomorrow (Black Friday) will bring some incredible deals.  My issue is not a comparative one.  My issue is one that is shared by many others.  We've got wonderful, tweaked out rigs that we've lovingly built from the ground up to meet our own personal specs...it does exactly what we want it to do.  We bought the mobo we wanted, we bought the video card we wanted, we bought the sound card, RAM, DVD burner, case, remote, mouse, keyboard...everything we bought had a purpose.  However, there's a gaping hole in our options here.  No matter what we do, there is no way for us to get a DCT, as of now, of course.  Personally, I refuse to buy from Dell, and HP is not too much better.  Alienware is overpriced, leaving smaller companies like S1 Digital as the most viable option.  Don't get me wrong, S1's stuff is top shelf, their service is incredible and their reputation is well earned.  However, as I've already said, I've got a rig.

Now, regarding delivering native digital cable within MC, and enabling distribution of this content among "approved" devices (such as a V2 extender ...$300 each!?)  Yes, it's a huge leap, however, the restrictions reduce a $2000 (I cut a $500 price break) MC rig to a closed box DVR.  How is this better than the multi-room HD-DVR being offered by Dish Network?  Sure, the consumer would have to sign a multi-year agreement, but there would be no initial outlay of cash.  The standard answer I've given people for this argument is that MC is much more than a DVR.  The music, video, photos, and add-ons themselves make it worth while.  However, the current  CableCARD 'implementation' cripples it.  I can't burn onto DVD with these recordings, I can't use incredibly valuable 3rd party apps like DVRMSToolbox, I can't watch my recordings on my laptop out on the patio...it locks MC down and turns it into not much than a $2000 Series 3 TiVo, from a DVR standpoint.  Actually, I seem to remember someone posting a way of using their PC to watch shows recorded on a series 3 TiVo, so they might have a leg up on that front.  I'm not certain of the details, but it rings a bell.

Here's my 2002/2003 rant checklist:
No HD support at all...check
No native mpg encoder...check
No integrated DVD burning...check
Unstable on good days, horrifying on bad ones...check
No native digital cable support...errrr...half a check there...my HDHomeRun provides me some digital cable support.

My current rant list is pretty short...things have improved exponentially:
CableCARD restrictions are horrible, intrusive and borderline offensive.
No native HD-DVD support.
And finally, not really a rant, more of a whine, no Audible support.

Regarding proving feedback to content owners.  Sure, I'd love to.  Have you got any rcommendations as to where these comments should be sent?

Yep, Let's just hope they allow DirecTV support for DIY, then we will all get an option for HD channels, trust me, if they offer it tomorrow, I will dump cable and sign a contract for DTV tomorrow.....

I just hope they give us DIY people who can build the "$2500" system for $1200, and run better, but, give us options for Some HD channels from somewhere...

I just want Discovery HD, Tell me any way I can watch and record it though media center ? Cheapest way is $1500, seems a little much for 1 channel

Hmmmm....the $5 cable box might be an option to watch HD channels but, it kind of takes away the point of having it all in one system...

I just bought a new PC, so of course I bought a nice new Vista MC box.  

CableCARD was an option for this machine but I got 2 regular tuners instead.  

CableCARD may be a good first step but, like so many others, I have already taken the first step: I have a $11/month HD DVR from my cable company.  As much as I hate not having HD tuners on this MC, I just can't justify paying the extra $$$.  The $300 or so it would have cost for 1 CableCARD is just silly because ***I can not give up my cable box***

the sad fact is CableCARD does not replace a HD Cable DVR.  First off, you have to get 2 CableCARDs in order to match the recording ability of the DVR, but there is no CableCARD replacement (yet) for all of the On-Demand channels or for PPV.  Both of these are features that have been around longer than HD and aren't features that I can give up.

So if I kicked out the $300+ for CableCARD(s) on this new PC, I would have to keep my existing HD-DVR.  

to make it worse, this problem has existed since before HD (IRBlaster rigged up to change channels on the cable box) and is always the point in my MCE evangelism to friends where we both realize that Media Center just isn't ready yet.  It is something I can live with and love (though in a bittersweet way, now that I have HD Cable [something I actually avoided until a few months ago because of MCE's missing functionality] in my living room) but it is not something that my friends and family can use to replace their cable box or DVR.

actually, I should note that my mom wouldn't mind the IRBlaster set-up... that is the same set-up she used with her VCR and WebTV, something that she grew to love and that can really only be replaced by by Windows Media Center.

GhostLobster: "How is this better than the multi-room HD-DVR being offered by Dish Network?"

If you compare ONLY the DVR features, it's on par with your satellite or cable DVR options in most cases. [I would actually argue that in many ways it surpasses those boxes from a usability perspective, but I don't believe that's really the topic of discussion here at the moment.] As you alluded to, Windows Media Center offers the value well beyond that of your typical DVR -- it's picture, music and personal video features alone trump any standalone DVR currently on the market.

I'd argue that if all you want is a DVR then buy / rent a DVR from your provider.

If you want more, than go with Windows Media Center -- and be patient as we continue to improve across the board.

My 2 cents - I come at this from an entirely different angle. I'm one of those people that simply can't program a VCR/DVD. Yeah I can program in C++, but not the VCR. Not TiVo. Multiple remotes throw me for a loop. I have to focus my limited intellect on a few things in order to have a competitive advantage there. Thus MCE was a godsend. By far and away the cleanest most intuitive interface ever. But my MC computer is now a few years old. And the wife is always asking, "HDTV?". Hell, I'm asking it. Where I live the cable provider encrypts everything. I've got hills for miles around me. So QAM and OTA are both out. What possible rationale could I have for spending $2000 for a CableCard PC rather than pay $10 month for a setop box from my cable provider? It pains me to say it but this wonderful device (MCE) has not kept pace with the changes in technology.

Charlie got in here before me and pretty much said what I would/could have. I guess I can add that we will definitely be able to improve our CableCARD scenarios - including what you can do with content - in the future. While we absolutely have a business agreement with CableLabs (and as Charlie said, it was a negotiation, not a dictation of terms) we also still work under the pressures of deadlines and releases, so not every feature we could do was released in our V1 of digital cable support.

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

It is very good to see Charlie and Jessica interacting and answering questions, however I too am concerned that Media Center is missing what the core market wants to purchase today - a premium, highly capable HD PVR with a few extra features.

Everyone I know living around here, and I do mean everyone, is moving to HD right now.  They are purchasing new HDTVs and within days/weeks getting HD content to watch on their HDTVs.  No-one I know is purchasing Vista Home Premium/Media Center licenses for their HTPCs.  Instead they are purchasing PVRs from the content providers and stand alone HD-DVD or Bluray players.

Does it really make sense to have Media Center without widespread HD input capabilities?  With the current market trend towards HD and the knowledge that most consumers stick with the same TVs, DVDs, PVRs, etc. for upwards of 10 years aren't you poised to miss the wave?

I could be wrong, but my thinking is the only way to catch some of this wave is to aggressively pursue HD inputs to Media Center and let the world know that Microsoft is focused on this.  By HD inputs, I mean all possible HD inputs, including official support for HDHomerun, QAM, Firewire, DTCP-1394, DirecTV, DVB-S, USB, DTCP-USB, etc. as well as CableCard in the US.  This HD content also needs to be shareable within a local DTCP-IP compliant network (whether DTCP-IP is used or Microsoft DRM is used doesn't really matter) between Vista MC HTPCs as well as extenders.

I'm also not sure that it makes sense for the entire Vista platform to bear the licensing costs for these technologies.  I could see it potentially being a hard sell (internally to Microsoft) to add all of this to each and every Vista Home Premium license sold.  Why not consider selling a "Media Center Accessory Pack - HD" that includes all of this and covers the licensing fees as well as HD-DVD/Bluray capability accessible from Media Center (possibly using a 3rd party application with hooks into MC).  In reality an "HD pack" could probably be sold for quite a reasonable fee (reasonable from Microsoft's position).

While I'm typing about an accessory pack, another huge weakness with Media Center that the real market is concerned with is the difficulty setting up Media Center to do everything we HTPC enthusiasts have it doing.  My father for example just told me he'd never really consider Media Center due to "the work to get it set up".  He's specifically talking about HD-DVD/Bluray, DivX, Weather add-in, DVRMSToolbox, sharing Recorded TV over the network with his other 2 MCE2005 PCs (that have never had Media Center launched even once), etc.

To me what is needed to make Media Center desirable enough to really increase sales of Vista is a "Media Center Accessory Pack - HD" that includes:
- Support for every HD input available today and in the future.
- Support for sharing HD content, including protected content with other Vista Media Center HTPCs.
- Support for HD-DVD/Bluray playback from within Media Center (3rd party is fine as long as the GUI is VMC)
- Support for all common video formats and containers, including mpeg-4, divx, ts, etc.
- An interactive Media Center "Add-in" control panel that provides basic information and links to 3rd party add-ins, including shareware and free ones (Weather, My Movies, DVRMSToolbox, etc., etc.) - of course there needs to be a generic warning that these addins are 3rd party software and tech support is not provided by Microsoft.
- Updates provided through Microsoft Updates.

BTW, we do have HD in Vista Media Center and we are located in Canada.  Our STB includes an R5000HD USB port and we use Tim Moore's FireSTB to bring HD content into Media Center.  We also have all Recorded TV available on any of our 6 Media Center PCs (2 VMC, 4 MCE2005).  Everyone who has seen our entire home Media Center setup has been blown away with what Media Center can do.  My wife is extremely pleased with having HD with Media Center and can't stop telling everyone what Media Center "could do" if it officially supported HD.  The problem is without any FireSTB support the real market isn't going to touch this with a 5 foot pole and that means no significant Vista sales due to Media Center being included.